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stranger
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Today's quotation from Abraham Lincoln regarding the "This too shall pass" mantra is a timely reminder of a theme that surpasses cultural and temporal bounds in the human psyche--on my office wall is a framed quotation from the Old English poem "Widsith," the refrain of which translates to "That passed, so will this." Ironically, I guess we can say about the truth of this statement, some things never change!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Indeed®.
This reminded me of some other wise words from the founding father:
Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?
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old hand
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the founding father
hmmm . . . can Lincoln really be considered a founding father? He was very influencial in bring about the present-day US, but he wasn't around in the very beginning, so was he really a "founder"?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Precisely, Jazz-o. As I understand it, the term "founding fathers" means the delegates participating in the constitutional convention, no more and no less.
But of course mav, not being a US'n, cannot be expected to fully knowledgeable of precise details of US history.
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Pooh-Bah
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On the other hand if you take seriously the claim of the Confederacy to sovereignty, Lincoln may not have been a founding father; it is possible, however, that he was the founding father.
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Yours is a very interesting thought, i'peter.
Lincoln viewed himself, at least rhetorically, as preserving what had been created "for score and seven years ago", not founding something new. ("Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure.")
But one could reasonably take your view that Lincoln, notwithstanding his own characterization, was in fact a "founder" in that the fundamental issue of states' rights had remained unresolved until the Civil War. Indeed, even many Northerners had felt that the southern states were within their rights (though misguided) to secede; the expression of that view was "wayward sisters, go in peace".
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Pooh-Bah
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<not founding something new
He would not have been the first man to deny paternity
;)
BTW, not nec. rep. my view, just a spin, a poss and not worth more than a syl. or a second.
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Indeed, even many Northerners had felt that the southern states were within their rights (though misguided) to secede; the expression of that view was "wayward sisters, go in peace".
I'm no lawyer, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Southern States were perfectly within their rights to secede. Wasn't it built into the original constitution?
Could be wrong, but I thought that that was the basis of the Southern view of the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression" which, if the Southern states were indeed within their rights to secede, it most certainly was!
[stirring the pot -e]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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CK, that's a very interesting subject that we might mark for future discussion, but I'd say that now is not an apt time to be stirring the pot with still another political discussion. (see, e.g., the results of the "gandhi" discussion.)
Besides, with of troy now a member of your harem, I trust you are too preoccupied (or too exhausted) for such a discussion.
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...now is not an apt time to be stirring the pot with still another political discussion...Keiva - There can be no better time... especially since the objective doesn't seem to be "political", but interpretive. CapK - Texas had a go at it... http://www.texfiles.com/texashistory/texfiles.htm (for amusement only  )
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Sweet musick, that's a cute site!  I was unable to help going to the curiously-named link of Later Billy, who, it turns out, has a vocabulary of 57 words, 29 of which are cuss words...
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TEd
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addict
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A letter in yesterday's UK Times attributed the following quote to Abe Lincoln:
"If we were born where they were born; taught what they were taught; we would believe what they believe."
I can't find this via Google - anyone have any better luck?
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A house divided against itself cannot stand.
This, probably Lincoln's best-known pre-pesidential utterance, may be particularly apt for us now.
There is much of further interest in that speech, but it may be unduly provocative for us now.
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Bingley
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Correct, B. When the speech is given in print, that sentence is in interior quotes.
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Hmmm, a question. In the days of Abe Lincoln, were the speeches written by the president himself or did he have ghost writers like all heads of state do now?
I feel some sympathy towards these writers. Their boss says something they wrote and it is the boss that goes down in history. The creative genius is not even a footnote in history.
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See http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/gadd/gadrft.htmlregarding the Gettysburg address, which pictures two of the five surviving drafts and gives cites to the other three. I'm no handwriting expert, but it appears to be Lincoln's handwriting, thus suggesting "no speechwriters".
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The story that I've heard (I don't know if it's true or not) is that Lincoln scribed the Gettysburg Address on an envelope on his train to the site where he was going to make the speech. That seems like it would be a rather short time to write a speech, but it would mean that he didn't have a speech writer.
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enthusiast
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I'm pretty sure that he didn't write it on an envelope, but he did write it himself. Presidential speechwriters didn't come around until the middle of the twentieth century, or therabouts. I'll check on that, though. Definitely not before 1900.
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Allow me to elaborate on TEd's succinct answer:
>No.
A mechanism was built into the Texas state constitution to allow rights of secession, but no other state has that (despite what's-his-name's fine efforts on Ecotopia), and there aren't any federal provisions for a state to leave once it's joined. There may well have been something in the Articles of Confederation, but I left my copy in my other pants...
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Pooh-Bah
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<<A mechanism was built into the Texas state constitution to allow rights of secession, but no other state has that
Tell that to a Vermonter--and be ready to run ;)
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Ha! Allow me ... I was there a couple of months ago and had this explained to me in semi-exhaustive detail.
Lincoln arrived at Gettysburg with a draft of the speech already written. He was, after all, dedicating the military cemetery there, and his original speech pretty much stuck to that theme.
However, when he got to Gettysburg, something - I know not what - caused him to sit down and rewrite bits of it, some of them more than once. However, the guides were emphatic that the "back-of-an-envelope" rumour was not true.
The final draft is, I believe, the one on display at Gettysburg. I didn't feel that paying $5 to see a piece of paper was worthwhile, somehow, so I didn't get to ogle it personally.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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According to http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/gadd/gadrft.html five drafts are known to exist. The Nicolay draft is believed, subject to some dispute, to be the "reading copy". That draft and one other are on display in the Library of Congress.
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mechanism was built into the Texas state constitution
Tell that to a Vermonter
Vermont has the right to secede from Texas?
All seriousness aside, I should think that a clever lawyer could mount an argument that what was entered in to voluntarily could be just as easily left. How successful the argument would be would probably depend on the political tenor of the sitting court.
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what was entered in to voluntarily could be just as easily lefthmmmm... so where is the rub of all our contract law, Faldage? And our international treaties...d'oh, I see what yah mean now don't mention Kyoto!
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contract law
I said a clever lawyer.
And the treaties we warmed up on were anything but international (As long as the grass shall grow).
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Pooh-Bah
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<<VT secede from Texas?
dammit, I thought I'd gotten over! ;)
as to the lawyering, I suspect the court might be martial.
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as to the lawyering, I suspect the court might be martial.
That was the Confederacy's problem. If they'd've had Calhoun or somebody like that take it to the courts, they might've won.
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<<If they'd had a calhoun...
script concept?
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But that's the horns of a dilemma. When South Carolina says in 1860 they want to quit the union, they are saying the US court system doesn't have jurisdiction. If they say it does have jurisdiction they admit that they are part of the union.
To return to another subthread about the conditions of Texas' statehood.
Texas was admitted under the following conditions:
Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United States, March 1, 1845
28th Congress Second Session
Begun and held at the city of Washington, in the District of Columbia, on Monday the second day of December, eighteen hundred and forty-four.
Joint Resolution for annexing Texas to the United States.
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That Congress doth consent that the territory properly included within, and rightfully belonging to the Republic of Texas, may be erected into a new state, to be called the state of Texas, with a republican form of government, to be adopted by the people of said republic, by deputies in Convention assembled, with the consent of the existing government, in order that the same may be admitted as one of the states of this Union.
2. And be it further resolved, That the foregoing consent of Congress is given upon the following conditions, and with the following guarantees, to wit:
First--said state to be formed, subject to the adjustment by this government of all questions of boundary that may arise with other governments; and the constitution thereof, with the proper evidence of its adoption by the people of said republic of Texas, shall be transmitted to the President of the United States, to be laid before Congress for its final action, on or before the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and forty-six.
Second--said state, when admitted into the Union, after ceding to the United States all public edifices, fortifications, barracks, ports and harbors, navy and navy-yards, docks, magazines, arms, armaments, and all other property and means pertaining to the public defence belonging to said republic of Texas, shall retain all the public funds, debts, taxes, and dues of every kind which may belong to or be due and owing said republic; and shall also retain all the vacant and unappropriated lands lying within its limits, to be applied to the payment of the debts and liabilities of said republic of Texas; and the residue of said lands, after discharging said debts and liabilities, to be disposed of as said state may direct; but in no event are said debts and liabilities to become a charge upon the government of the United States.
Third--New states, of convenient size, not exceeding four in number, in addition to said state of Texas, and having sufficient population, may hereafter, by the consent of said state, be formed out of the territory thereof, which shall be entitled to admission under the provisions of the federal constitution. And such states as may be formed out of that portion of said territory lying south of thirty-six degrees thirty minutes north latitude, commonly known as the Missouri compromise line, shall be admitted into the Union with or without slavery, as the people of each state asking admission may desire. And in such state or states as shall be formed out of said territory north of said Missouri compromise line, slavery, or involuntary servitude, (except for crime,) shall be prohibited.
3. And be it further resolved, That if the President of the United States shall in his judgment and discretion deem it most advisable, instead of proceeding to submit the foregoing resolution to the Republic of Texas, as an overture on the part of the United States for admission, to negotiate with that Republic; then, Be it resolved, that a state, to be formed out of the present Republic of Texas, with suitable extent and boundaries, and with two representatives in Congress, until the next apportionment of representation, shall be admitted into the Union, by virtue of this act, on an equal footing with the existing states, as soon as the terms and conditions of such admission, and the cession of the remaining Texan territory to the United States shall be agreed upon by the governments of Texas and the United States: And that the sum of one hundred thousand dollars be, and the same is hereby, appropriated to defray the expenses of missions and negotiations, to agree upon the terms of said admission and cession, either by treaty to be submitted to the Senate, or by articles to be submitted to the two Houses of Congress, as the President may direct.
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The Congress of the United States, by joint resolution, later provided as follows:
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the state of Texas shall be one, and is hereby declared to be one, of the United States of America, and admitted into the Union on an equal footing with the original states, in all respects whatever.
My conclusion:
Texas came into the US just like any other state except for the fact that it was a separate country. It has no special right to secede, though it could become five states instead of one, which would give it ten of 108 senators!
TdE
TEd
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When South Carolina says in 1860 they want to quit the union, they are saying the US court system doesn't have jurisdiction
Naw. The State of South Carolina is in the Union (and under jurisdiction of the Federal court) until that court gives them permission to leave the Union. At that point it no longer matters who does or doesn't have jurisdiction over them.
may hereafter...be formed out of the territory thereof, which shall be entitled to admission
But not required. They could split off the whole state except one little corner next to Louisiana (East Texas ain' hardly *real Texas anyway) and then not bother to join the Union.
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until that court gives them permission to leave the Union
Isn't that the perq of the legislative body rather than the judiciary?
oh, yeah, I fergot you-all had now reversed the rules! who judges the judges....? [whistles]
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Isn't that the perq of the legislative body rather than the judiciary?
Well, duh! Do I have to lay out the whole scenario for you? Seufz! The SC state legislature (legislative branch) votes to consider secession from the Union. They appoint a lawyer (or, more likely assign the job to the state Attorney General {executive branch}) to argue the case before a Federal judge (judicial branch). As soon as they win they vote to finalize the Articles of Secession and go merrily on their way. Until the actual vote on the A of S they are still in the Union and subject to the Federal Court; after the secession they don't have anything to argue.
If the Federal Senate passes some law says cain't nobody secede, the state wishing to secede challenges the constitutionality of that law in federal court.
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