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The points you make are good and I suspect over a whisky we wouldn’t end up a million miles apart. Let me offer just a few quick thoughts.
What a wonderful post to become a Pooh-Bah with. I am nothing but impressed by the thoughtful, incisive debate that this thread has become. Mav, Ted, Keiva, Bob, Jo, Bingley, Whit, Jackie, and all the rest -- you are making me challenge my assumptions and question my world view with every post. Thank you all for being here. I think we could all use a good stiff one these days, and I'll raise a toast to you all.
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Carpal Tunnel
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it could have been a similar attack on a nuclear reactor.
It crossed my mind Tuesday morning.
I can go one block from my house and look across the salt water marsh and see the dome of the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant, just three miles south of me as the seagulls fly.
Chilling.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Mav, I haven’t participated much to this discussion. To date, I would only have repeated your words, but probably not with such clarity.
There is one thing you mentioned that I have to discuss, if only for my own emotional well-being. You write (I shortened it a bit cause my post is long): … Images of hundreds of Palestinians spontaneously celebrating must have caused deep revulsion among Americans and many others ...those images of jubilation carried a message which will almost certainly be ignored...The fact is that for more than five decades, in defiance of countless UN resolutions and of international law, the Palestinians' land has been occupied and their rights ignored by Israel, with full diplomatic cover and open-ended financial and military backing from Washington. So for many Palestinians, Israel and the US are virtually one and the same thing. That is why the awesome atrocity triggered jubilation among many ordinary Palestinians.
I wish I had your power of speech to get my point across but here goes...
I was raised to believe that deep inside we are all the same. Our basic core is one of kindness and good. And that, true, there are differences brought on by cultures/religion, but real people, you know, that guy standing in the street, or the woman at the grocery store, or anywhere,,, inside themselves, inside people are basically good.
This is what my father taught me and I have always lived my life accordingly and never hesitated to stand and defend that idea (as those on the Board the longest will surely vouch for)….YET…now I am shaken.
No matter what these Palestinians have lived through, don’t they have a core that should have told them that killing innocents is not something to celebrate? I am in turmoil because of the sight of those in jubilation. Did my father lie to me, unwittingly and of kind heart, but was it a lie? And am I living a lie?
I don’t know anymore and I am angry at myself for not knowing. I’m angry because I think that this is only ONE thing and yet it makes me question myself. But it was such a cruel sight, and so many people, all celebrating. I have stood up to bosses (got fired once), stood up to a racist client (and am consequently banned from selling to one of the biggest pharmaceutical retailers) and never doubted, never hesitated.
But now I doubt, and wonder if it was really a lie told by one who always believed it to one who was naive enough to believe it too?
What do I do now Mav? What do I do now?
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Pooh-Bah
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Bel and Maverick,
I speak here as a Jew, as one revolting with difficulty against the Zionism preached to us in our youth, against the concept of the agglomeration of enemies as the defining moment of one's faith, as one revolted at Israeli actions against the Palestinians last autumn. I permitted an eviscerated rendition of my letter to the editor to be published by the New York Times last November. The sentence removed read, "I hear with shame the litany of wrongs against us preached while we kill children." I have heard words of unspeakable bigotry uttered by men whose faith-legally-forbids it. Moralistic posturing is a favorite dissemblance of purveyors of atrocity. And Israel is far from innocent.
At the same time, caution is advised in rebuke. To say that Israel has occupied Palestinian lands for five decades may be arguable, but to make that argument is to say the State of Israel has no right to exist.
Inspite of my complex feelings about that country, I recognize the presence on those lands of two peoples, the consequences of whose removal from there alone endows each with the right to remain.
Israeli behavior towards Palestinians has often been utterly deplorable. And if the structures of power in the Middle East are so constructed that the only apparent enemy of the Palestinian nation is the Israeli, still, that nation's nascent pleas have often, too, been murderous.
We find ourselves in cycles of violence and revenge that cannot be closed in a framework of blame and retribution. While I agree with much of what you say, I ask you to exercise great caution in fashioning your arguments.
US Middle East policy has been brutally arrogant, as, under the patronage of their allied states, have been the policies of the competing nations on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean towards each other. And US policy needs to be radically changed.
Perhaps, though, the political situation on that soil could be considered in terms of competing rights and not of competing wrongs. Of historical exigencies horrific and long past undoing.
Bel, I don't believe that human beings are inherently good. Or perhaps-all-individuals of our species can undertake the enormous task of *becoming human-and *that we become, as what we become, *can be inherently good. We are faced daily with that choice. And now, at impossible cost, we may recognize it. Pray that we do.
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Carpal Tunnel
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bel, bel--don't lose your faith, child! Your father was RIGHT! People ARE inherently good! Maybe not every last one on the earth, but the VAST majority of us are! To start with, look at us here on the board: are we a group who was handpicked for our kindness and good will? No! We are a completely random group, though I will admit to a kind of segregation by virtue of education. And look how much real caring we have demonstrated for each other--we who came together with no foreknowledge at all of each other.
Anywhere you go in first-world countries, you find instance after instance of human-to-human good will. Capital Kiwi and his wife were bought dinner by complete strangers in Detroit. People who need driving directions are helped by willing strangers. Are there very many times when an obviously stricken person is ignored? No. My friend who went to the Ukraine a few years ago reported desperate shortages, including food. Yet when she purchased anything intended for a meal for her and her hostess, her hostess insisted on sharing it with others who were also deprived.
I do not know how far kindness to others is extended in countries where starvation and warfare are a constant way of life. But please remember that these are extreme conditions, and if people are not "good" in these circumstances, that is not an indication that the good wouldn't show itself were they living in a normal situation.
Speaking of extreme conditons: I thankfully know nothing firsthand of the prison camps of WW II, but from everything I have learned, prisoners of all kinds took as good a care of one another as they could. I read where a doctor in the killing fields of Cambodia was at the point of death from dysentery; his wife gave him the only food she had been able to find for days: a potato, charred nearly solid. But the charcoal saved his life. I believe she lost hers.
Lastly: look, just LOOK, at the genuine, grass-roots sorrow displayed by nations all over the world today, on this, a United States national day of mourning. Their governments had OUR national anthem played and sung. The governments can order a ceremony, they can order our song played, but they cannot order citizens--people-- to come and to cry. I saw this in every ceremony that was on our television, including yours, dearest bel, and I have cried at every one. People all over the world have literally stood up for America today, no matter that their opinion of us might have been less than positive prior to Sept. 11th., and as our day of mourning draws to a close, I add my thanks to all--to all. It is so heartening...so strengthening.
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A wonderful discussion among all parties. A few quick comments/responses; it's too late at night to do much.
Bel: Follow your heart, my dear. Your bringing-up, your standards are leading you the right way.
InselP and Mav: I am not a Jew, but I support the Israelis on the Israeli/Arab situation. You are both sadly ignorant of a number of basic facts which can be found in a non-partisan history and in many documents. Such as: 1. The British acquired Palestine after WWI as a mandate from the League of Nations. The mandate was "to provide a permanent home for the Jewish people". Palestine at that time was a neglected and impoverished vilayet of the Ottoman Empire, which had just gone down to defeat. The native Arab population lived under Turkish law, had done for centuries, and had no say. The vast majority of the Arab population were living in poverty, working for a handful of wealthy landowners who spent their time in Damascus, Beirut, Cannes, etc. The Brits, needing to get some kind of administration in place, turned the territory over to the Colonial Office, who proceeded to attempt to run it like another colony, on the model of Egypt, also a British colony at the time. It is believed by most experts that the Brits' motivation was that they wanted to protect the other flank of the Suez Canal so as to eliminate any threat of disruption of their line to India, their chief colony. 2. When the Brits took over, Palestine consisted of what is now both Israel and Jordan. As soon as they started the mandate, Jews started coming in. They cleared out the malarial swamps (at great mortality from disease), planted trees, irrigated fields, and started reclaiming the land which had been neglected and run down for centuries. The rich landowners were glad to sell these worthless (to them) plots of land to Jews, and did so. ALL THE LAND SETTLED BY JEWS BEFORE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL WAS PURCHASED FROM ITS PREVIOUS OWNERS. Of course, the landowners cared nothing for their tenants, but the Jewish buyers did what they could to help the displaced Arabs.
3. After a while, say around 1922 or so, the Jews were doing so well that some Arabs got jealous that the Jews had prosperous kibbutzim and other communities while they still had these worthless lands and wanted to be cut in (without doing anything for them, of course). This was the start of the "Palestinian" movement (a name not applied to the Arab population of the area until then). It was headed by a Hussein who called himself the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was in with the rich landowners, and who later became an ally of Hitler during WWII. They started the campaign of violence against Jews which has gone on ever since, hoping to discourage them so they would leave and abandon their farms and factories. 4. The Brits, not wanting a lot of strife, coddled these Arab thugs and ended up, after some years of continued violence, by sawing off the eastern part of their Mandate (in contravention of the terms of it) as a "home for Palestinians", naming one of their stooges whom they owed a favor as king, and named it Trans-Jordan, later shortened to Jordan. So there really is, and has been for 70 or so years, a Palestinian state -- it's called Jordan. 5. When WWII broke out, the Jews, although greatly dissatisfied with the British administration which allowed them to be massacred by Arabs with impunity, supported the Brits against the Axis; the rich Arabs did all they could to help Hitler, the peasants, as always, were at the mercy of prevailing forces. It was during the war that the Jews set up their own organizations, like the Irgun Zvi Leumi, the Stern Gang, etc. which became the basis of the Israeli army and political parties. 6. When the war was over, the Brits figured on going back to the status quo ante, but the Jews were having none of it. The Holocaust had changed all that. The Brits, as is well known, tried to cut off immigration into the territory, even of Holocoast survivors. The Jews, having adopted the principle: NEVER AGAIN, took on the Brits and the outcome was that the Brits had to get out. 7. The Arabs, having forewarning that the Brits were leaving and not giving the Jews any help in taking over (the same thing they did in India, setting the stage for the Hindu/Moslem strife), figured the Jews would be easy pickings. They advised the native Arab population to get out of the country for the time being so their armies would have a clear field in driving the Jews into the sea. Thousands of Arabs took this advice, some selling their land cheap, others abandoning it. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs failed to defeat the Jews and the Jews, very naturally, declined to readmit those who gave up their property and they became refugees, whom the Arab states have kept in that status ever since. 8. From 1946 until the later war when Israel defeated the combined Arab armies once again and recaptured much territory, East Jerusalem was part of Jordan. The Jordanians desecrated Jewish cemeteries, denied all access to holy places to Jews, cut them off from Mt. Scopus where the institutions of learning and healing were. When Israel took back Jerusalem and the West Bank, they decided that this would not be allowed again; hence their determination that Jerusalem shall be their eternal and undevided capitol, although they allow Moslems access to the Temple Mount, even when the Friday sermons egg on the believers to new hatred and violence against Israel. 9. The claims of the Palestinians that they are a poor persecuted lot of people whose land was stolen from them are mostly rot, although there have been some cases of dubious landtaking. As I noted above, up to the war, all land was purchased by the Jews, and most of it after the war as well. But the Palestinians and their Arab brothers in other nations in the area learned one of Hitler's techniques: If you tell a big enough lie, and tell it consistently and constantly, it will eventually be accepted by most people as truth, no matter that evidence exists to refute it, because most people can't be bothered with evidence. That's what you, IP and Mav, have been bamboozled by. Check the history and evidence.
Horrors -- that last turned into a thesis. I'll have to get in some other points, in which I agree with IP and Mav, tomorrow.
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Pooh-Bah
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Bobby, To preface, I appreciate your informed post. However, I think you've misunderstood me entirely. I said something to the effect that I suppose one *could make the argument that Israel has occupied Palestinian lands for five decades. I don't, however, believe the argument is valid. The phrase "five decades" is a significant shorthand, there. The historical exigencies include, of course, the holocaust of the Jews. Whether or not a wrong was perpetrated on a pre-existing Arab population from the West Bank to the Mediterranian in 1948 is, at best, an open question. That the survival of the Jews was in question, or could at least reasonably have been thought to have been in question, is plain, and wtih my shorthand, I intentionally by-passed that question. I am concerned with the facts of today, when the visitation of violence is not unilateral. For my own people, the spectre of the holocaust as mask, as proof of our moral superiority and victimhood is simply grotesque. Behind the tale of our legendary (and real) suffering, we hide actions which can only remind of actions perpetrated by those who wrought that suffering on us. That acknowledgment is in no way meant to suggest innocence on the part of the Palestinians. I mean only to remove the moral posturing from the exercise of power--on either side. I believe, too, that I suggested that if the Palestinians have enemies in the Middle East, those enemies exist in regimes other than the Israeli, too. For the Jews, it seems to me that the terrible irony of the Israeli state is that if it succeeds, it can probably only succeed in destroying the very people it was meant to preserve. Here, I will add the same caveat you did: it is late and I can only touch on these arguments. Finally, I would suggest that the question of the Israeli and Palestinian states is peripheral to what is happening here (in New York), today. Today's events transcend nationalism and bigotry. They involve the antagonistic world views of secularism and religious fundamentalism. That, of course, is a fortune cookie assessment, but in this forum, points of view must be assembled in bits and pieces. IP here is a URL for alternative positions. my inclusion of it here does not necessarilly mean I support any views stated there. http://www.alternet.org
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Carpal Tunnel
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Bel, yes it is revolting that anyone should think Tuesday's events are cause for celebration, but something I have learned from talking to people here (and I don't mean about the current situation but over a long time) is that for people without the benefit of exposure to other cultures or a high degree of education it is very difficult to think of people who live thousands of miles away as real. They can be good and kind to the people around them or to strangers they meet but people the other side of the world don't realy exist. They're just images on a tv screen at best -- and images on a tv screen are always getting shot at, blown up and dying in all sorts of ways. It's a failure of imagination. We must do better than that because we know better. I hope that this medium we're experimenting with will spread so that everyone can feel that people the other side of the world are real and come to know and love them as we are doing. Given the bitterness of civil wars I may be deluding myself but I have to keep hoping, now above all.
Having said all that, once those who are responsible for this have been definitely identified they must be dealt with fairly but decisively however much we may understand what led them to it. In this case to understand all cannot be to forgive all, but the understanding must still be there.
I'm sorry if this is less than coherent.
Bingley
Bingley
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several of the news broadcast, especially the radio ones, (having seen the damage, up close and personal, i don't like watching it, so i stay away from tv) have pointed out the WTC -- was just that-- a World Trade Center. many, many foriegn nationals are among the missing and injured. on UK firm lost 100 employees, most from UK. a small japanese trading company lost the entire office.. only 20 odd, but everyone.. ozzies, kiwi, south americans, many other european nationals.. pakistanies where especially hard hit, many of them kitchen staff, trapped on the very top, after the plane hit, with no way down, the stairwells in flames.
the "normal NY" is a foriegner. killing 5000+ NY'ers means every country on the globe has lost someone.
I never really think about it, but its very true, in a normal day, i met or interact with more than a dozen people of other nationalities.. i live on a 1 block long dead end street. 30 houses or so total. my neighbors hail from croatia, poland, czechaslovia, columbia, korea, pakistan, germany, ireland, austria, italy, greece, taiwan. some are like me, born in this country, with parents who imigrated, but the austrians, czechs, croats, koreans, and pakistanis, and greeks are all new imigrants. i suspect inselpeter has as rich a mix in his neighborhood.
NY is an upstart for a cosmopolitan city, but, i think it has mix of nationalities, greater than any other city in the world. (as well as the local joke, of what is the largest (or second largest) greek city, israeli city, italian city, irish city, korean city, (and so on..) the answer is always the same, NY.
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