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#41481 - 09/13/01 07:47 PM Re: testosterone responses
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
there is more testosterone than cold logic being displayed in a few posts over the last 24 hours

I think people were just looking for a safe place to vent the anger and sorrow ...
A sleeping giant waking, Ann? Well, I hope so: but waking to the true responsibilities engendered by world economic domination, rather than just to bust up the guys in the black hats.
Yes, you are absolutely right.
AS a mother with with a son in the Army, in a Light Infantry Division, I am in no hurry to see our Armed Forces deployed.
Many of the Morgan Stanley Dean Witter folks in WTC were people my late brother Joe did business with. The Portsmouth NH offices of the firm (where Joe was a VP) is in shock. It's a terrible time and I do not think life will ever be the same.
We are at the beginning of a long process and I hope it is well thought through and judiciously carried out.




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#41482 - 09/13/01 08:04 PM Re: testosterone? responses
Keiva Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 2605
While it is perfectly understandable that some would disagree with those of us who favor more aggressive courses, I resent that aggressive positions are here denigrated as mere testosterone responses.

That is ad hominem argument, not reasoned discussion.

Let us end calling posts that disagree with us "rants" and "nonsense". It is not productive, indeed not even relevant, to claim that people were "murdered by the armed forces of Israel", and then suggest that Bush Sr. and Kissinger was each "a mass murderer". I find it odious to even suggest that those past events are to be equated with the events of last Monday.

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#41483 - 09/13/01 09:15 PM Re: testosterone? responses
Jackie Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11605
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
I think this quote from Dave Barry's article that Max posted is appropriate here:
That's what's so hard to comprehend: They want us to die just for being Americans. They don't care which Americans die: military Americans, civilian Americans, young Americans, old Americans. Baby Americans. They don't care. To them, we're all mortal enemies. The truth is that most Americans, until Tuesday, were only dimly aware of their existence, and posed no threat to them. But that doesn't matter to them; all that matters is that we're Americans.



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#41484 - 09/13/01 09:27 PM okay, this is some serious shit
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10508
Loc: this too shall pass
our government has named Osama Bin Laden as the guy. I just watched a Frontline special
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/
which details what we know about him. they found losts of important Muslim/Islam figures to say good things about him -- he is regarded as a hero by many of his Saudi countrymen. this is not going to be pretty.


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#41485 - 09/13/01 10:32 PM This is not going to be pretty
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
It sure isn't. But I do espy a kind of hope, as Friar Lawrence said. From other reports I have been hearing, I suspect that the Taliban may be at least considering the possiblity of handing bin Laden over. And I think that Sec. Powell's approach to the Pakistanis is to enlist them to put pressure on the Taliban to do that. The Taliban seem to be counting up their cards and may decide that bin Laden is not worth U.S. reprisals on an already impoverished country (partly their own work, but that's another story). If indeed bin Laden is the culprit, or one of them, that would be an optimal outcome. But we'll see.

Having said that, I must echo the comments of, I believe it was, Keiva. For all you pacifists there, I respect your opinions and your position, and your right to express them, but please try to exercise logic and make your arguments relevant. What the Israelis, Bush I, Nixon, et al. may do or have done, is irrelevant. And I don't accept your arguments that reprisal is a) subhuman, irrational or caused by excess of testosterone, b) what the terrorists want, c) some sort of vindication of the terrorists' positions or beliefs, d) doomed to failure, starting a new round of violence, etc. I take it that you believe we should do nothing except tut-tut like a bunch of schoolmarms. Well, we've been doing that too long and what has it got us? Pacifism is a noble philosophy, and would be preferable to 99.99% of all wars ever fought, but it is dangerous in the extreme in situations involving a real threat by the truly evil. If the pacifists had prevailed in 1939, 1940, 1941, what would the world be like now? No, my friends, face it -- there is such a thing as genuine evil, which must be resisted and crushed, even if it takes deadly force and mass destruction and the sacrifice of many innocent sons and daughters of innocent men and women. For evil to triumph all it takes is for well-meaning people to stand back and refuse to do what has to be done to end it. No same person wants war and its consequences (which always turn out worse than intended), but the alternative is unthinkable. I hope and pray we may yet be able, by measured and appropriate measures, to capture or neutralize the big scorpions wherever they have their nests and thereby deter or cripple the little ones. We'll never get them all, I suppose, but we can make a start.


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#41486 - 09/14/01 01:18 AM Re: This is not going to be pretty
Bingley Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
Like everyone else, I am still in a state of shock and horror over Tuesday’s events. I thank God that Helen and Inselpeter, the only two people I know in New York, are safe and well and my heart goes out to the families of those who are not.

If anything deserves retaliation this does. But:

Last Christmas Eve some churches in Jakarta were bombed (including the church I go to – by God’s grace that bomb was found and dealt with before it exploded, but the intent was there and other bombs were not found in time). Would the members of the congregations affected be justified in retaliating against whoever planted the bombs or were behind it? Why or why not?

Maluku and Central Sulawesi have been in a state of near anarchy for some time now with fighting between Christians and Muslims. Both sides have committed outrages. Are those affected on either side justified in retaliating? Why or why not?

Suicide bombers have been at work in Israel. Are the Israelis justified in retaliating against the Palestinians they believe are harbouring the organisation responsible? Why or why not? Conversely many innocent Palestinians have died in Israeli attacks. Are Palestinians justified in retaliating? Why or why not?

Irish terrorists have exploded bombs in London. Would Britain be justified in sending in some sort of attack force into Ireland? Why or why not?

What all this is leading up to is this question: if we are drawing lines at what point does retaliation become justified? When we (whoever "we" are) are the ones hurt? When we have the power to do so? When a certain number of people (which is what?) are killed?

I don't know. I'm only asking.

Bingley
_________________________
Bingley

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#41487 - 09/14/01 05:26 AM Re: testosterone? responses
maverick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
Ken and Bob, I would not have even bothered to engage in dialogue with you if I did not respect your opinions and want to let you know there are alternative perspectives available on this desperate mess. I knew my views were unlikely to be popular in your ears, but perhaps I should clarify a few points since my arguments have been misunderstood in some respects.

I’ll do this short style to keep it as clear as I can.

1. I detest and abhor the actions of the zealot madmen who perpetrated the outrage and consider it an act of barbaric evil.
2. I am not a pacifist, and (to repeat my earlier remark) I believe reprisals should be taken in cold blood.
3. I believe that all reprisals should be taken within the law of civilisation which we seek to defend – in principal, if the USA tries to act as judge & jury & executioner in the manner suggested, it will have undermined the very basis for rational action and will have descended to nothing better than lynch law and an exposition that “might is right”.
4. It is clear to me that an imperative of dealing with terrorists is to detach them from their support base.
5. To do this it is vital to understand those who show ill will in a general way – vide “…Americans. They don't care. To them, we're all mortal enemies…” The people shown dancing in the streets in Palestine are IMHO sick bastards; but that people can show such extraordinarily inhuman ill-will has to be understood if it is to be fixed.
6. I believe the USA’s history of action in the wider world since the second world war is crucially relevant to gaining this understanding. You may not be comfortable with this fact, but it is true that even amongst America’s many friends there is a widespread perception that the USA government pursues its long-term goals with a ruthless disregard for the competitive interests of other peoples on this planet, and has often behaved in ways that are illegal and wrong.
7. I do not personally believe Bush Snr can be viewed as a mass murderer – I raised this as a question to illustrate the fact that there are some who do and who come to a very different world-view as a consequence. You may not like this fact – but it is a fact, and one that we have to come to terms with in order to be able to live in a more or less peaceable world.
8. I raised the issue of the Palestinians because in my view until the western world comes to a balanced appraisal of this incessant tribal warfare, there can never be any resolution. This was in response to the suggestion that the USA should change its stance in relation to these parties by adopting a bellicose and even more partisan position. [Personally, the only thing that makes sense that I can understand is a viable state for Palestinians and another for Israelis, both mutually recognising each other’s right to existence and the pursuit of freedom and happiness, but that is a red herring at this juncture.]
9. I think it is crystal clear that all major powers act in a manner dictated by expedience rather than morality, and indeed all that it takes for an evil course of action to prevail is for good men to do nothing. That is why it is vital that we do not allow idiots to brand this as a “war” when it is a despicable act of terror, why we cannot let anyone suppose there is any quick fix available no matter what force is thrown in the scales, and why the only way in which we can improve our long-term hopes is to learn the ultimate lesson that there is no Them and Us – there is only us. We have to change our own hearts as well as our neighbours’. Of course, this does not make for good TV.



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#41488 - 09/14/01 05:35 AM
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409

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#41489 - 09/14/01 07:14 AM Re: testosterone? responses
maverick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
Images of hundreds of Palestinians spontaneously celebrating must have caused deep revulsion among Americans and many others who were horrified by the suicide hijack attacks and the ensuing carnage.
Like the attacks themselves, assuming that they were indeed the work of Islamic or Arab terrorists - which may not be the case - those images of jubilation carried a message which will almost certainly be ignored.
Rather than prompting a serious attempt to address the question Why?, both are likely to widen the gulf of miscomprehension and drastically envenom the situation.
The fact is that for more than five decades, in defiance of countless UN resolutions and of international law, the Palestinians' land has been occupied and their rights ignored by Israel, with full diplomatic cover and open-ended financial and military backing from Washington.
So for many Palestinians, Israel and the US are virtually one and the same thing.
That is why the awesome atrocity triggered jubilation among many ordinary Palestinians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1540000/1540364.stm



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#41490 - 09/14/01 08:43 AM Re: testosterone? (Palestine)
maverick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
An interesting view from within Israel:

with or without Islamic fundamentalism, with or without Arab terrorism, there is no justification whatsoever for the lasting occupation and suppression of the Palestinian people by Israel. We have no right to deny Palestinians their natural right to self-determination. Two huge oceans could not shelter America from terrorism; the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel has not made Israel secure — on the contrary, it makes our self-defense much harder and more complicated. The sooner this occupation ends, the better it will be for Palestinians and Israelis alike.

It is all too easy and tempting now to fall into all sorts of racist clichés about "Muslim mentality" or "Arab character" and other such rubbish. The horrendous crime committed against New York and Washington is a sharp reminder that this is not a war between religions, nor a struggle between nations. This is, once more, the battle between fanatics for whom the end — any end, be it religious, nationalistic or ideological — sanctifies the means, and the rest of us who ascribe sanctity to life itself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/opinion/14OZ.html



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