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#41471 - 09/13/01 01:10 AM Re: Remedy/response, terrorist attack Sep 11.
Geoff Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/12/00
Posts: 819
Loc: Portland,Oregon, USA
Yeahbut - the last time we acted promptly and firmly, anyone of Asian descent was promptly hauled off to an internment camp. No one needs to see that again either.

Funny you should mention that. Last Friday I attended a performance of Portland Taiko, a Japanese/American traditional drumming ensemble which is half drums and half theatre. One of their presentations was a memorial to the Japanese Americans who were deprived of their rights as Americans because of their race. There were photos from the Tule Lake, California camp projected on the stage during the spoken/played performance. These Japanese Americans bent, but did not break, when assaulted by the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune," as Shakespears put it. Do we now want to snap in the force of the bitter wind that has blown upon our shores? Do we simply "cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war," or do we take the time to fully comprehend the who and what and why of the enemy? I do hope that the US government - one for which I did not vote - has more wisdom than I gave it credit for at the polls last November, and acts in a rational manner in this catastrophe.


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#41472 - 09/13/01 03:47 AM -
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981

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#41473 - 09/13/01 06:04 AM Re: There is some, measured reporting
wsieber Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1026
Loc: Switzerland
Dear Jo,
Your contribution contains all the aspects that seem important to me, too. And you put it masterfully. No need to add anything, in my view.


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#41474 - 09/13/01 06:52 AM -
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981

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#41475 - 09/13/01 08:57 AM Re: Remedy/response, terrorist attack Sep 11.
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 4189
Loc: Rio Grande, Cape May County, N...
Yes, insel, for clarity's sake let me say I agree with your assessment of the Palestinian situation, I have nothing against the Palestinians or any other people of the world. I don't know who "they" are...this handful of predators that changes from situation to situation. We could call them "whoever." In fact, "they" was even "us" in Oklahoma City. But when these handful of idiots are caught, in whatever situation, from hereon in they must be dealt with firmly.


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#41476 - 09/13/01 10:43 AM Re: Remedy/response - word for US Armed Forces
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
Just checked and in my Email got this from the Internet version of http://www.armedforcesnews.com which is primarily for active duty and reserve forces and dependants.

America Under Attack
Note From Don Mace, Publisher
In a time when our country is under attack it may seem
almost senseless to send you a routine issue of Armed Forces News. Today is of course not a routine day. It is a day when we lean heavily on ALL OF YOU who have sworn an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. We are the greatest nation in the world and we will bring these cowards to justice! It is a day when we reinforce our allegiance to the Commander in Chief. But it is also a day when all living Americans must continue to eat, sleep, buy groceries, send their children to school, and prepare for tomorrow. To do otherwise would hand these vicious cowards who attacked us an unacceptable victory. With this in mind we bring you this edition of Armed Forces News.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you – all of you.

Hold Fast,
Don Mace


In the face of what may yet come, please keep our soldiers, sailors and airmen -- and their families - in your hearts and prayers, especially those who died at the Pentagon in service to their country.

Later Edit
Armed Forces recuitment center report that they have been inundated with young men and women coming in to sign up for active service.
Memories of Dec. 7-8, 1941 fill my mind.
One young high school woman on TV said she has often heard her Grandfather talk about where he was on Pearl Harbor Day and she said that she expects she will tell her children about where she was when the World Trade Center was attacked.

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#41477 - 09/13/01 02:18 PM Re: Remedy/response - word for US Armed Forces
Jackie Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11605
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Armed Forces recuitment center report that they have been inundated with young men and women coming in to sign up for active service.
Oh God. I pray they may never see active duty.



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#41478 - 09/13/01 03:06 PM Re: testosterone responses
maverick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
sorry if this goes back over old ground, but I haven't been able to join in today.

Permit an outlander to remark that there is more testosterone than cold logic being displayed in a few posts over the last 24 hours.

WO’N chooses the losing position with his suggestion Violate the international law of political assassination YOU BET!! GO FOR IT!!! We have the technology and trained covert forces to get it done! Any proven mass-murdered or war criminal... Who determines who is and is not a mass murderer – was Mr Bush Snr a mass murderer on the Basra road, was Kissinger a mass murderer in Laos and Cambodia…? I suggest that the winners of the wars write even most accepted history, so contemporary accounts from the combatants are even less likely to be accurate judgments on such momentous issues. If we start openly acting in the kind of way suggested we undermine all the values on which our civilisation is built: to paraphrase Thomas More from A Man For All Seasons “when you have chopped down the last tree in the legal forest, and the devil turns around and comes looking for you, where will you hide then?”

TEd rants We have made a career out of altruism…But we have let ourselves be pushed around once too often. Let the word go forth from this moment on YOU FUCK WITH US AT YOUR OWN PERIL. The first statement is as much of a nonsense as it would be about any trade empire the world has ever known – national self interest is pursued with largely ruthless self absorption whilst most citizens are content to not know what is done in their name. And about the final statement, the bitter truth is the guys who do this kind of act don’t care. Let me repeat this because this is fundamental: they do not care. You cannot usefully or effectively threaten anyone who does not care about your sanctions. But in truth, you guys know this – and your current expressions are borne out of natural anger and frustration.

And BYB says nobly that I'm prepared to be magnanimous to these deluded wretches from Palestine, 600 of whom have been murdered in the last 12 months by the armed forces of Israel who are armed and funded by the $3 billion per annum deducted from American taxes. Can you truly be serious in thinking that Israel’s claim to dominion over the multi-cultural centre of Jerusalem would lead to other than outright mayhem?

I note that two of our members who have most directly experienced the recent horrors seem to talk the most sense. I have been particularly struck by these words from inselpeter:

”we are best advised to respond judiciously and with great restraint. A counter attack against this crime must be conducted in terms of the justice of civil-society, for it is civil society that is under attack. We cannot accept… terms defined by our adversaries.”

And from Helen:

“we must stand and fight. not guns and missiles, not as much an armed retaliation, as a fundamental movement, to civility…. all of us, must act to contain the evil. in our own hearts, in our families, in our communities, in our governments.

we must not stand idly by, nor can we let our response be dictated by those who have so injured us. any response must be lawful, just and reasoned.. we can not cure this wrong by acting wrong.”


I hope that these lessons will be applied in the USA next time the begging bowl is passed around for fundraising on behalf of the IRA or the neo-nazi groups in the UK, both of which could not exist to practice their terror without American funding. Hyla was also right in his very thoughtful piece:

“At the same time, I have some hope that this will change the way Americans act in this world. Ted is right, that we have contributed in huge ways in this world, but we have also shown great arrogance in how we operate.”

A sleeping giant waking, Ann? Well, I hope so: but waking to the true responsibilities engendered by world economic domination, rather than just to bust up the guys in the black hats.



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#41479 - 09/13/01 03:35 PM Re: testosterone responses
of troy Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
thank you mav. i think it is easier for both inselpeter and i to be reasoned, as bad as our city has been hurt, we both know, first hand, this is a serious injury, but not a fatal blow.

i think back to the floods we has some years ago, when all of the mississippi valley, from canada to the gulf bay was flooded to some degree. a devistating flood, and now, a few years later, its hard to remember.

it will be harder to forget this, since it was a deliberate act, but in a shorter time than you can imagine, it will be hard to remember the year... we look and say was that 2001? or 2002?.. NY will go on, it will be better and stronger.

the news just reported, Morgan stanly, in WTC north, (first building hit,) has accounted for over 34XX employees, and only 37 are still missing.. these numbers are heartening. the news about the firemen, the news about regular "tapping" is good too, since we know there are more survivors.

what is most scary, most threatening, is the thought that this event will cost us our liberty. one difficulty about the dead and wounded, is no one in US is reguired to "carry papers". We have a freedom here, of life, of movement, of press, of person. i do not want to lose the forest of law, now, each leaf is precious.

_________________________
my other obsession

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#41480 - 09/13/01 04:36 PM Re: testosterone responses
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10508
Loc: this too shall pass
I'll continue to come back (perhaps incessantly) to this point: if we arrive at a place where we must make a reasoned response to an act of jihad by a band of religious zealots, our hands are (once again) tied; for there very likely is no reasoned response -- or rather, the reasoned response will be (once again) no response.

but. this is not a *politically viable response.

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