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stranger
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Ok, I've always been told to use "moot" (adj., as in a moot point) to indicate insignificance or triviality. Then I look it up and find it also means 'open to question.' I'm not sure how to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory definitions! Help!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, a question I can answer and the time zones are on my side for once.
The original meaning of moot was debatable, so a moot point was and still can be one that is debatable. The word was then taken over by law students to describe mock court sessions they used for practicing litigation skills. From that it came on to mean trivial, academic, irrelevant to the real world.
Bryan A. Garner's "A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage" comments: 'Today in AmE, the predominant sense of moot is "having no practical significance" in both legal and nonlegal writing. ... To use moot in the sense "open to argument" in AmE today is to create an ambiguity, and to confuse most of one's readers. In BrE, the transformation in sense has been slower, and moot in its older sense retains vitality.'
Bingley
Bingley
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old hand
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Instinctively, I sense a certain similarity with the "begging the question"-thread of late. The expression is often found in places where, strictly speaking, it does not belong, raising suspicions of one-upmanship. And, like in the former case, given the ever-changing nature of a living language, stubbornly defending its "purity" might turn out to be .. a moot point.
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Surely the "moot point" thingie goes way back to the original meaning of a question that had remained unresolved by a particular "moot" or meeting, e.g. in the moot-hall or moot-house, or on moot-hill (not boot-hill, or at least, not usually) or whatever.
So don't worry about Garner and his "ambiguity", not to mention the lawyers. Forget "no practical significance" or such. Be not ashamed to use the expression properly. Long live vitality! (To coin a phrase).
Rgds, lusy
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Oh yes, and sorry, I should have said welcome on board, sisyphus85. You have yet to realise what you have let yourself in for, if you will pardon a somewhat displaced preposition. Incidentally, I am intrigued by your userName and why there are so many of you, apparently at least 84 others! What on earth is the attraction in uselessly shoving things uphill? Do you have some sort of club? Do you enjoy kicking against the pricks? (Actually, now you mention it, I rather do, myself.) In case I have offended anybody I hasten to add that many of my best friends are pricks.
Rgds lusy
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No doubt this has been discussed before (possibly ad nauseam), but at what point do we recognise that a change in meaning has taken place? If I think about my own Southern English usage, I would say I usually use moot to mean open to debate but as a theoretical point rather than a practical one. If Americans use it differently that's up to them, but it's worth knowing that the difference exists to avoid misunderstandings.
Bingley
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Welcome, sisyphus85 !
I have two guesses re: your name. One--you struggled thru
school, from which you graduated in '85; two--you graduated in '85, and have had an uphill battle ever since.
Now to the (non-moot, apparently) point--I have always understood moot to mean that the outcome has already been decided, so there is no use in further argument/discussion.
This, like Bingley, I picked up from attorneys.
I will now put what Gurunet has. No wonder there is such
confusion--what it means depends on how you use it!
moot (mūt)
n.
Law. A hypothetical case argued by law students as an exercise.
An ancient English meeting, especially a representative meeting of the freemen of a shire.
v.tr., moot·ed, moot·ing, moots.
To bring up as a subject for discussion or debate.
To discuss or debate. See Synonyms at broach1.
Law. To plead or argue (a case) in a moot court.
adj.
Subject to debate; arguable: a moot question.
Law. Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled.
Of no practical importance; irrelevant.
moot'ness n.
USAGE NOTE: As an adjective moot has come to be widely used to mean no longer important, irrelevant, as in It's a purely moot question which corporation you make your rent check out to; Brown will get the money in either case. This usage may be originally the result of a misinterpretation of its legal sense in phrases such as a moot question. A number of critics have objected to this use, but it was accepted by 59 percent of the Usage Panel in the sentence The nominee himself chastised the White House for failing to do more to support him, but his concerns became moot when a number of Republicans announced that they, too, would oppose the nomination.
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The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992, 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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moot verb
To put forth reasons for or against something, often excitedly : argue, contend, debate, dispute.
To put forward (a topic) for discussion : bring up, broach, introduce, put forth, raise.
To speak together and exchange ideas and opinions about : bandy (about), discuss, talk over, thrash out (or over), thresh out (or over), toss around. Informal: hash (over), kick around, knock about (or around). Slang: rap3. Idiom: go into a huddle.
adjective
In doubt or dispute : arguable, contested, debatable, disputable, doubtful, exceptionable, mootable, problematic, problematical, questionable, uncertain.
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Roget's II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition by the Editors of the American Heritage® Dictionary Copyright © 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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moot
moot1 (`mūt)
vt.
To make moot (statute of limitations would moot the effort - S. R. Sontag)
moot2
adj.
[(of a trial or hearing) hypothetical, staged for practice, from moot hypothetical case for law students, argument, deliberative assembly, from Old English mōt assembly, meeting]
Deprived of practical significance Made abstract or purely academic (the case became moot when the defendant paid the sum at issue) see also mootness doctrine compare justiciable ripe moot*ness (`mūt-nəs)
n.
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Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law 1996. Merriam-Webster's, Incorporated. Published under license with Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
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>>stubbornly defending its "purity" might turn out to be .. a moot point.<<
Good one!
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I have a colleague who not only uses it to mean no longer important, irrelevant", but also pronounces it "mute" -- thereby adding a connotation that it should no longer be spoken of. arrrrrrrgggggggh!
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>>but also pronounces it "mute"<<
Tsuwm, are you sure that's not just the Yankee in him/her?
Some of you northerners shoo-uhr say thangs funny! I had a
friend from northern Ohio who said 'roof' with the same vowel sound as book. Everybody else I know says it w/ an
"oo" sound, as in shoe. And some from up that-a-way say
"house" almost as two quick syllables: ha-oose.
But, I do realize that it is a different matter when changing the pronunciation makes another actual word.
I don't think I'd care to try learning Chinese, for ex.,
or any language where voice inflection alone changes the
meaning completely. A-ack!
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stranger
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Thanks everyone for replying. I was born in '85. And Sisyphus just interests me; often I feel all I'm doing is pushing a boulder up a hill, but hopefully with a touch of elegance. Unfortunately, the library has apparently 'lost' their copy of Camus's _The Myth of Sisyphus_ but I'm trying to locate one.
I must admit, this board is rather demeaning to my vocabulary (not to mention my pseudo-intelligence). I'll have to keep reading.
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Carpal Tunnel
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>>I was born in '85<<
My son was born in '85. Now I know why you feel like
you're pushing a boulder uphill!
This will--more than likely--ease up when you get out of
school. Unless, of course, you get a job w/ high stress on a daily basis! Stockbrokering (yikes! I'm verbing a noun, Tsuwm!) on Wall Street comes to mind for that.
Hope you land something laid-back! ('Nother hippie phrase.)
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stranger
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Although the meaning of the word "moot" may be in itself moot, one might add to this notion that the word has melded through use, and may now mean "debatable, but to no avail." Just a thought.
On Sisyphus: Yes, he pisses off the gods and is therefore condemned to push a boulder up the mountain each day for all eternity--this is clear. However, some interpret the ending to mean that Sisyphus learns to love his labor, and thereby confounds the gods.
Another moot point?
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