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#37121 - 07/31/01 12:26 AM
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409

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#37122 - 07/31/01 07:03 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Sweet Max, fret not, my friend, fret not. I doubt there is anyone who has perfect pronunciation. And who's to say what that is, anyway? Each country, even, has regional variations, let alone the differences between countries.
And not just vowels, either-rrrr, hee-yah? In Kentucky, you can hear something like this: Lemme borry yer pin to wraht with.

Singing pronunciation does or should differ, though, I think. Bob? AnnaS.? Faldage? Have other singers been taught this? As an example, in choir I sing ow-er, not are,
for the word our. 'Are' is very commonly heard here for
'our', and sounds even worse sung than it does spoken.


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#37123 - 07/31/01 07:22 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!
Bean Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 1156
Dear MaxQ,

Coming from a country where our neighbours to the South firmly believe we say "oot" and "aboot" instead of "out" and "about", I understand your pain! We don't really say those words that way, of course, and I think I've said this before, we just use a different dipthong (uh-oo) before an unvoiced consonant, whereas in the US they use the same dipthong (ah-oo) whether the consonant is voiced or unvoiced!

Anyway, I figure, as long as you pronounce things the way everyone around you did when you were learning to speak, then your accent must be "right" for where you live!

(Recently there was an international choral festival here. A choir from Australia was being interviewed on the radio, and commented on the "funny accents" here. After the segment, the announcer wondered aloud - just whose accent was funny!?)


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#37124 - 07/31/01 07:31 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
I'll leave Faldage to comment on pure vowels for me. Whatever he says, I agree with a priori.

(and it's diphthong, not dipthong!!)


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#37125 - 07/31/01 08:27 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!
Bean Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 1156
(and it's diphthong, not dipthong!!

[sarcasm] Oh yeah, right, such a common combination of letters - phth - how could I get it wrong![/sarcasm]


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#37126 - 07/31/01 08:56 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!
rodward Offline
addict

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 609
Loc: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
and it's diphthong, not dipthong!!

It's quite easy to remember Bean; a dipthong is a very thin bikini, a diphthong ties two dipherent vowel sounds together!
Rod




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#37127 - 07/31/01 08:58 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
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For what it's worth, Max, according to Vox Latina in classical Latin the sounds of an unaccented i and an unaccented u were practically indistinguishable.

But!

What Jackie says is right: "Singing pronunciation does or should differ. The vowels in Italianate Church Latin are pure Italian vowels ah, eh, ee, oh and oo none of which are diphthongs.

But, wait! That's not all!

There is also German Church Latin. Most of the noticeable differences in German Church Latin have to do with consonant pronunciation but the long e seems to be undergoing a Great Vowel Movement« similar to the Great Vowel Shift that English underwent in the 16th and 17th centuries and is pronounced rather more towards the sound of the long i.

Carmina Burana is however largely *not Church Latin (despite having been collected and even in some cases written by monks) and therefore not subject, strictly speaking, to the rules of Church Latin pronunciation. If you are singing in a group situation you will be subject to the dictates of the director. If you are singing by yourself, feel free to pronounce any way you want. I, for example, in the privacy of my own shower or automobile (or even when serenading my favorite phone callee) when I indulge in a stirring rendition of The Swan Song from Carmina Burana will, if doing my own setting, pronounce cygnus as tsinknoos.


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#37128 - 07/31/01 11:43 AM Singing pronunciation
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
Jackie and Faldage are both correct about pronunciation in singing. And it isn't just a matter of how you pronounce Latin etc. Even when singing in English there are times when the normal spoken pronunciation of a vowel needs to be altered so that the mouth is better shaped to enunciate the musical tone. You will have noticed that singers generally have their mouths open and rounded, which is to produce a sonorous tone; but you can't pronounce the short flat vowel sounds with your mouth like that, so for euphony the vowel is made deeper or more round. On the other hand, especially in Latin but sometimes in other languages, a final 'e' sound has to be shortened to 'eh' for the sake of the musical tone. It is also necessary frequently to suppress the letter 's' so a choir doesn't sound like the reptile house at the zoo.


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#37129 - 07/31/01 01:24 PM Re: Singing pronunciation
musick Offline
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
Aside from the dipthong *issue (which I believe is a "subjective" one), the throat and facial muscle tensions needed to create certain vowel sounds is an important reason for vocalists to avoid their use, as these tensions will easily interfere with the resonance the voice is allowed when relaxed... not to mention (again) the enunciation and euphony.

BYB ...but there is *nothing like a choreographed group of reptiles.


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#37130 - 07/31/01 01:35 PM Contriving a pun
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
But, wait! That's not all!

Faldage, are you a BassMaster?«
not bad for someone who does The Swan Song in vowelly pure falsetto!




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#37131 - 07/31/01 02:07 PM Re: Dip Thongs
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
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Aside from the dipthong *issue (which I believe is a "subjective" one)

I object!



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#37132 - 07/31/01 03:33 PM
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
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#37133 - 07/31/01 03:56 PM Re: Singing pronunciation
of troy Offline
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Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
well-- i share, with several other on this board- an inability to carry a tune-- even if you pack it up in a bucket. but that didn't stop the nuns from trying to teach me to sing-- (all assured places in heaven for their efforts, no doubt)

we were taught --bel canto--? the idea of singing with our mouths shaped into a open mouth smile.. as this was supposed to bring forth the most pleasant sound.. and all of you music guys are right-- if you keep your mouth shaped as an open smile.. there are sounds you can't make..

i can, with effort, read music, but the thing i remember most clearly was the effort to learn to sing with a smile.

_________________________
my other obsession

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#37134 - 07/31/01 05:06 PM Objection sustained
musick Offline
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
It's always about spelling, eh?

Of the "common" forms of long and short vowels, the more open version is chosen to represent a tone in what would be a subjective choice... not always the *best sounding... or even clear in meaning

beet (long)preferable to bit (short)
blah (longer) " " black (short)
bottom (short o) but (short u)

Max - I've never heard U (long) substituting for I (short), it is most often E (long) that does that job (eg. sounding as sung "sa-lu-tees")


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#37135 - 07/31/01 06:18 PM
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409


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#37136 - 08/01/01 06:59 AM Re: Objection sustained
maverick Offline
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
It's a weird thing, Max - every time I read your jocular heading to this thread, I am internally pronouncing it like the good Rev Ian Paisley from Northern Ireland

Is it some effect of Scottish impact that has created this tendency in both tongues?


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#37137 - 08/01/01 07:07 AM Re: Fush & chups, anyone? Mea Maxuma culpa!
jimthedog Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 387
Loc: Hartsville, New York.
I have finally started to learn Maaori
I had assumed that you already knew it.



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#37138 - 08/01/01 08:57 AM Re: Dip Thongs
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
"Aside from the dipthong *issue (which I believe is a "subjective" one)"

Dear Faldage: What is the difference between a "dipthong" and a "G-string"?


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#37139 - 08/01/01 09:37 AM Re: Dip Thongs
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13801
What is the difference between a "dipthong" and a "G-string"?

A dip thong reveals more than it ought but a G-string has a certain air.


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#37140 - 08/01/01 10:22 AM Re: Dip Thongs
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
And you can't make beautifull music by plucking a thong.


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#37141 - 08/01/01 11:43 AM Re: Dip Thongs
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
Androcles made a friend by plucking a thorn [Ů]


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#37142 - 08/01/01 04:45 PM Re: With A Thong In My Heart
wow Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
Where is the musical note emoticon when you really need it?

Of troy : For superb example of bel canto style, listen to Andre Boccelli's album "Romanza."
Yummy.


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#37143 - 08/02/01 11:49 AM Bel Canto
Bobyoungbalt Offline
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Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
Or for a supreme example of bel canto style, listen to any recording of Rosa Ponselle or Maria Callas.


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