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#34243 - 06/29/01 12:33 PM words within words
NBCrecman Offline
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Registered: 06/29/01
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Loc: Florida
Newbie to the board.....long time wordaday follower.
Does anybody know what is.... the "study" of words within words....?


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#34244 - 06/29/01 12:47 PM Re: words within words
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi, NBCreman

When you say "words within words", are you speaking of agglutination, specifically? If not, I would think etymology would suffice.

EDIT: Oh, now that I've read Mav's post, I see that I completely misunderstood the question. How embarrassing .

SECOND EDIT: Wow, what a neat site I just found, looking for your answer: http://einstein.et.tudelft.nl/~arlet/puzzles/language.html
charlinkadery looks promising.



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#34245 - 06/29/01 12:48 PM Re: words within words
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Welcome. Could you give an example? (I'm thinking meta must be part of the word - I'm also thinking Anu used this as a weekly theme - tsuwm or an other [sic & ™] can look it up)


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#34246 - 06/29/01 12:48 PM Re: words within words
maverick Offline
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Welcome to the board, NBC - and the outlook over Wales is currently sunny!

I will be interested to see if tsuwm or some other wise owl digs up a special word for this. It's certainly a popular sport and a useful teaching tool - eg,

http://www.members.home.net/teachwell/index


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#34247 - 06/29/01 12:50 PM Re: words within words
Fiberbabe Offline
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Loc: Portland, Oregon
No, I don't know. I just have to take this opportunity to invoke Garrison Keillor's clever demonstration that the word "usage" is contained within the word "sausage", and likewise is the word "turd" within "Saturday". Then he spun some tale about having sausage dinners on Saturdays of his youth, and how that always disturbed him, somehow...


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#34248 - 06/29/01 12:56 PM Re: words within words
AnnaStrophic Offline
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mav, that 'simultaneous sausage' thang was *particularly scary. Don't ask me about Lemony Snicket. Please.


thanks, Fiberbabe

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#34249 - 06/29/01 01:01 PM Re: words within words
maverick Offline
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OK.

But only cause it's you


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#34250 - 06/29/01 01:21 PM Re: words within words
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Combinatorics" seems to be a likely suspect, but there appears to be a heavy mathematical emphasis on this form of study. There are several sites which discuss combinatorics specifically as it relates to the study of subwords.

With that, I'll give up and just wait for tsuwm to come to our rescue


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#34251 - 06/29/01 01:29 PM Re: words within words
of troy Offline
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Also, at the bottom of the main index there is a thread for "be heading words"

this was a theme--
Bleach
leach
each
ach

some members found words they could behead 5 or 6 times.. i think there is one string of seven!

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#34252 - 06/29/01 01:31 PM Re: words within words
of troy Offline
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Also, at the bottom of the main index there is a thread for "be heading words"

this was a theme-- e.i.,

Bleach
leach
each
ach

some members found words they could behead 5 or 6 times.. i think there is one string of seven!

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#34253 - 06/29/01 01:36 PM Re: words within words
tsuwm Offline
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longest charlinkade FORESTALL: FOREST, ALL; FORE, REST, TALL (9)

notice the "link" part of charlinkade. the words listed in the two groups *link the characters of forestall. the word ore is also contained therein, but doesn't work.


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#34254 - 06/29/01 02:33 PM Re: words within words
NBCrecman Offline
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Registered: 06/29/01
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Loc: Florida
WOW... what a response... thanks all.
Words obviously connect sentences and people


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#34255 - 06/29/01 02:46 PM Re: words within words
of troy Offline
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there are other word games.. one that help with spelling (as your words within words does, i guess)

i learned to spell conscious.. because someone pointed out that the word had some science to it.. and after that, i never forgot the c--conscious in the middle.

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#34256 - 06/29/01 03:08 PM Re: words within words
wwh Offline
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FORESTALL: FOREST, ALL; FORE, REST, TALL (9)

Why not STALL ?


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#34257 - 06/29/01 03:25 PM Re: words within words
Brandon Offline
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i learned to spell conscious.. because someone pointed out that the word had some science to it

But don't let your conscience get to you...


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#34258 - 06/29/01 05:58 PM Re: words within words
Jackie Offline

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Welcome aBoard, NBC. Golly, from your screen name, I thought maybe you were in charge of staff fun at NBC!
But then I saw your bio--you and Rouspeteur share a career, as do WhitmanO'Neill and Flatlander (sort of), not to mention three-used-to-be-four attorneys, three docs, and a whole bunch of folk wot work with/on/in computers.


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#34259 - 06/29/01 06:25 PM Re: words within words
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
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The word within word...or.

Welcome aboard NBC! And thanks for the interesting thread!

share a career

And, Jackie...never knew you were such a "bio scholar"! Double


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#34260 - 06/30/01 07:46 AM Re: words within words
Jackie Offline

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"bio scholar"

Zee grreat Know-all knows all, dahlink...
.kcab elbuoD


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#34261 - 06/30/01 10:40 AM Re: words within words
wow Offline
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i learned to spell conscious.. because someone pointed out that the word had some science to it

And separate has a rat in the middle.




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#34262 - 06/30/01 10:50 AM Re: words within words
Marianna Offline
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Actually, I think most people who misspell separate have a problem with the second syllable, and they write *seperate instead. Or at least I've seen it spelled like that numbers of times. And the rat is still there!



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#34263 - 06/30/01 11:49 AM Re: words within words
Sparteye Offline
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You will remember "separate" if you remember not the rat in it, but a rat in it.


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#34264 - 06/30/01 11:51 AM Re: words within words
Sparteye Offline
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PS: Howdy, NBC!


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#34265 - 06/30/01 12:18 PM Re: words within words
wow Offline
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not the rat in it, but a rat in it.

Hey! C'mon you guys! That's what I said :
And separate has a rat in the middle
Perhaps I should have written : And separate has "a rat" in the middle ...
But after the discussion about over use of the quotation marks ... ?


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#34266 - 06/30/01 02:07 PM Re: words within words
tsuwm Offline
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but if you don't use quotation marks when 'appropriate', you might end up using nearly unreadable fonts, or *unusual* characters, or actually unreadable colors, or even [HORRORS] caps, just to add emphasis. not to mention writing almost entirely in lower case just to de-emphasize your ordinary musings.


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#34267 - 06/30/01 02:42 PM Re: words within words
Faldage Online   sleepy
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not the rat in it, but a rat in it.

And Marianna made the same mistake I did so many years ago when I was told that there was a rat in separate.


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#34268 - 06/30/01 03:12 PM Re: words within words
wwh Offline
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And that's par for the course.


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#34269 - 06/30/01 03:25 PM Re: words within words
Faldage Online   sleepy
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That's a separate issue


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#34270 - 06/30/01 03:31 PM Re: words within words
wwh Offline
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I, too, have a remarkable command of the obvious.


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#34271 - 06/30/01 03:45 PM Re: words within words
Sparteye Offline
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Posts: 1773
It's not the obvious, it's a obvious; ms anne obvious; wife of Ron Obvious and cousin to ee cummings.


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#34272 - 06/30/01 04:10 PM Re: words within words
wwh Offline
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Like the gal who wore sweaters for three good reasons. One, they kept her warm, and the other two were obvious.


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#34273 - 06/30/01 05:14 PM Re: words within words
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
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But after the discussion about over use of the quotation marks...?

Good to know someone else is going through the same Quotation Mark Paranoia that I'm experiencing right now! Notice all the bold showing up in my posts lately?


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#34274 - 06/30/01 08:09 PM Re: words within words
Rusty Offline
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Registered: 04/18/01
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Loc: Alice Springs, Northern Territ...
In reply to:

longest charlinkade FORESTALL: FOREST, ALL; FORE, REST, TALL (9)

notice the "link" part of charlinkade. the words listed in the two groups *link the characters of forestall. the word ore is also contained therein, but doesn't work.


In the word 'therein' there nests a veritable forest of linguistic creatures. And 'therein' itself nests in 'thereinbefore', an even more fertile progenitor of nested words.

As for agglutinative or pyramid or curtailed words, the longest string I've seen started with about 13 letters, but my favourite (only because I thought it up myself), at 11, is:

austringers
astringers
stringers
stringer
stinger
stinge
singe
sing
sin
in
I

An austringer, as I'm sure you all know, is a variant spelling (in OED) of the word for 'a keeper of goshawks'.


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#34275 - 07/01/01 04:46 AM Re: words within words
Marianna Offline
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You will remember "separate" if you remember not the rat in it, but a rat in it.

My mistake, wow and sparteye
It's pretty clear to me now what you meant!




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#34276 - 07/01/01 10:20 AM Re: words within words & pesky "spells"
wow Offline
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not, dear Marianna, it's the lack of vocal intonation in the written word that causes difficulties now and then ... happens to all of us.
Here's another I had trouble with early on in spelling lessons : remember that cemetery is all "E"s - as in EEEEEE! A cemetery!
And Sheriff was a problem until someone said : "The Sheriff is a Really Fine Fellow!" -- Sheriff : one R, two Fs.


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#34277 - 07/01/01 10:59 PM Re: words within words
Bingley Offline
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In reply to:

the "study" of words within words


Then there's infixes. In English I think they're mainly confined to swear words (absobloodylutely)but I believe there are languages where they're used just as much as we use prefixes and suffixes.

Bingley

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#34278 - 07/02/01 08:00 AM Re: words within words
wwh Offline
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Dear Bingley: thanks for the word "infix". I don't remember seeing it before, and it could be handy.My dictionary gives the word "gemology" with the "o" as an infix.

P.S. All of the words ending in "ology" then are examples of use of "o" as an infix.


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#34279 - 07/02/01 10:09 AM Re: words within words
tsuwm Offline
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re: absobloodylutely - some resources now assign the rhetorical figure tmesis to this kind of affix.
http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/archive/1999/05/26.html


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#34280 - 07/02/01 10:13 AM Re: words within words
Faldage Online   sleepy
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infixes. In English I think they're mainly confined to swear words

This is a whole nother issue.


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#34281 - 07/02/01 10:19 AM Re: words within words
tsuwm Offline
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a whole nother
...and *that is definitely tmesis.


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#34282 - 07/02/01 10:30 AM Re: words within words
wwh Offline
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Tsuwm scores big again. Thanks for the link to the word "tmesis".


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#34283 - 07/02/01 10:42 AM Re: words within words
Faldage Online   sleepy
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some resources now assign the rhetorical figure tmesis to this kind of affix.


But then we see from the Goldwyn quote* that, while tmesis may be necessary for infixing, infixing is not required for tmesis.

*"In two words, im possible." --Samuel Goldwyn


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#34284 - 07/03/01 12:29 AM Re: words within words
Bingley Offline
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In reply to:

some resources now assign the rhetorical figure tmesis to this kind of affix


According to The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar it's the other way round. Tmesis is the older term and infix the more recent.

Bingley

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#34285 - 07/03/01 02:48 PM Re: words within words
wwh Offline
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Here's a link with some nice information about tmesis and related words

http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Figures/TMESIS.HTM




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#34286 - 07/03/01 02:58 PM Re: words within words
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Good to know someone else is going through the same Quotation Mark Paranoia

"Pay" no "attention" to those "Nattering Nabobs of Negativism".


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#34287 - 07/03/01 03:20 PM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
Faldage Online   sleepy
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According to Dr. Bill's source (http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Figures/TMESIS.HTM) tmesis is interjecting a word or phrase between parts of a compound word...

According to tsuwm's source (http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/archive/1999/05/26.html) it's the act of splitting the word or words apart.

So which is it?

Don't make me use my OED


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#34288 - 07/03/01 03:48 PM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
wwh Offline
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Then tsuwm's source seems a bit remiss. Why would you just split a word, and then leave it that way?
First you split, and then you insert. No ribaldry about it.


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#34289 - 07/03/01 09:01 PM Re: words within words
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
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those Nattering Nabobs of Negativism

Thanks, Spiro T.!...the words of a true Vice President! Well, with that kind of support I will no longer worry about erasing the miles of Quotations from my tapes! """""""""""""""""""""""""""""


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#34290 - 07/04/01 10:02 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Why would you just split a word, and then leave it that way? First you split, and then you insert.

Ah, but they are two separate processes and the Goldwyn quote given in tsuwm's link does only the former.

Not to mention that the original Greek means an "act of cutting".

Or, that is, to quote our own ledasdottir and an early document cited by David Crystal in his Encyclopedia of the English Language a nother*, close quote, issue.


*Once again Ænigma sides with you, so I rest my case.


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#34291 - 02/05/04 09:43 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
jheem Offline
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Tmesis orignally refered to splitting preverbs (look like prepositions) from verbs. Greek, Sanskrit, and German do this. The split isn't really interesting on its own, but provides a slot for other words to interpose themselves. Tmesis comes from the same root as atom 'indivisible' (literally 'uncut').


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#34292 - 02/05/04 12:30 PM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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my god. Dr. Bill was only a veteran...

thanks for the update, jheemster!



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#34293 - 02/06/04 02:17 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
dxb Offline
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The split isn't really interesting on its own, but provides a slot for other words to interpose themselves.

Well, Mon Oncle, the concept sounds interesting. Can you give us an example, please?


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#34294 - 02/06/04 10:11 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
jheem Offline
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the concept sounds interesting. Can you give us an example, please?

Sure. Here's a line from the Iliad xvi.670:

chrison t' ambrosiêi, peri d' ambrota heimata hesson

"anointed him with ambrosia and clothed him in immortal raiment"

peri ... hesson "put around, clothed" (periennumi 'to put round'). Sarpedon has just been killed and Apollo has taken him off the field for a funeral. The consensus seems to be that preverbs hadn't quite become as stuck to verbs in Homeric Greek as later. Though tmesis still happens in Classical Greek in Attic poetry and some plays for effect (as an archaism).

Bonus, here we get the word ambrosia and the adjective immortal (applied to clothes) in a single line. The verb hennumi 'to clothe' is related to Latin vestis 'garment, clothing' and Sanskrit vaste 'to clothe oneself'.


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#34295 - 02/06/04 10:32 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
wwh Offline
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Dear jheem: could "divestrix" be equivalent of "ecdysiast"?


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#34296 - 02/06/04 10:39 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
jheem Offline
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Works for me.


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#34297 - 02/06/04 11:15 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
dxb Offline
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Loc: UK
chrison t' ambrosiêi, peri d' ambrota heimata hesson

"anointed him with ambrosia and clothed him in immortal raiment"


Thank you for that. I am a little the wiser! It is useful to have an example, even for a non-{Greek reader}.



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#34298 - 02/06/04 11:34 AM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
jheem Offline
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Loc: California
Thank you for that.

You're welcome, dxb.

One thing I was thinking about on the way to work yesterday morning was how tmesis in English, abso-bloody-lutely is not based on morphemic boundaries as it is in Greek (and other languages). Absolutely breaks down as follows: ab-solute-ly. Actually, you could argue that in English absolute is not composed of two morphemes but one.


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#34299 - 02/06/04 12:14 PM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
dxb Offline
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Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
That kind of expression had occurred to me too. But as you point out structure has no influence at all. It is just done however the speaker thinks best and is purely for emphasis. Don't think it counts really!


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#34300 - 02/06/04 12:25 PM Re: t flipping mesis: which is it?
jheem Offline
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Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 1474
Loc: California
Don't think it counts really!

Do you mean that abso-effing-lutely isn't tmesis? Me, I think that some classicist was overjoyed when s/he was asked what the word-within-a-word thing was called, and said: "tmesis". Whatever it's called, it's something that happens and it's quite productive. And, yes, it has less to do with morphology than with prosody.


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