|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Did any of you USns watch CNN last night? Larry King had as his guest Steve Irwin, the Crocodile Hunter, of Animal Planet, that mad Aussie bugger who, contrary to all reasonable expectations, still has both his arms and both legs, I don't know why.
He was quite interesting, when you could understand what he was saying. It's bad enough he has an Aussie accent you could cut with a knife, but he is very impulsive and speaks very fast. I think I missed about half of what he had to say.
So, ye Ozzie denizens, what is your take on the engaging Steve, who seems to be the biggest Aussie import (other than Heath Ledger) since Crocodile Dundee? And what is it anyway with Aussies and crocs?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>but he is very impulsive and speaks very fast.
this is beginning to seem like a national trait.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
Whaddyameanwespeaktoofast?
Which reminds me of the famous Australian town Didjabringyagrogalong.
And I have no idea about the Aussie v croc thing. Never actually seen one myself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 53
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 53 |
Unfortunately I missed the interview! I used to live together with 4 guys and they all idolized Steve Irwin. We thought he was crazy, but we watched his show every week without fail. Now that I live in Germany I don't have that luxury anymore! I certainly miss it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
I don't have that luxury anymore! I certainly miss itHey squid - is that referring to the bit about living with four guys? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Mav-- Squid not only lived with four guys-- they all idolized an other guy-- guess that how squid got his name-- from multi armed gropeing!  ---squids have even more arms that octopus, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dictionary says squid have 8 arms. Wouldn't care to have them draped around me. Though I hate the word, I must say they really suck.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
"Course, squid might brag that he's a Giant Squid...so he had more than enough to go around! But grandiosity is a squidish trait! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
Squids (or is it squidopodes?) have 10 arms.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Most nerves are small and hard to get at chemically. The squid, a
10-armed marine animal related to the octopus, has very large nerve
fibers from which pure axoplasm,
Dear JazzO: So much for trusting the dictionary.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
It just occurs to me that the Sargents at Arms-Arms-Arms for this board are squid and Jazzoctopus. Any strong-arming to be done, we know who to call. No sucker punches, though. [(w)ink-(w)ink emoticon]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
 That was truly awful, Sparteye. Go to your room.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
But which one, poor dear?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
21st C Gospels:
My lawyer's house hath many mansions...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Jazz are you sure? I thought squids-- like star fish can have any number of arms- depending on species.. (10 being the most common number for squid, 5 for star fish)
Dr bill-- squids (and octopus) are both quite nice, breaded and deep fried, served with a spicy hot tomato based sause.. I particularly like the little ones, fried whole.. I haven't quite worked up to eating them raw--as they do in japan.. they are also nices stewed in a tomato sause and served with pasta...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
I dunno: is this the first instance on the board in which one member has discussed eating another? squid! Jazzo! Run for your lives!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Helen, when I said squid suck, I was not expression gastronomic aversion.As a double entendre, I was referring to the large number of suction cups with which they cling to things. And just to confuse things more, I just remembered reading about cuttlefish, large enough to battle whales (though the whales apparently most always win). The dictionary say the cuttlefish have eight arms and two tentacles. I wonder if that total is what is called ten arms elsewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Maybe Bean can help us-- i think--as recall-- the differences between arms and tenticles has some thing to do ith use-- a male (both octopus and squid) have at least one specialize tenticle-- with which they pass a sperm sack to the the female so that she can fertilize her eggs-- cuttle fish/squid have two tenticles for holding onto each other (male/ female) bonding and passing the sperm packet. for a creature with 8 or more arms, the whole thing seems so polite, and un touchy! and again, as i recall, female squids are a bit less receptive than octopus-- so squids tend to hold on, while transfer is going on... or maybe Jazz knows.. he's safe enough..
it impressive that i know so much about mating habit of animals.. i don't even like them that much-- not that i dislike..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
>And just to confuse things more, I just remembered reading about cuttlefish, large enough to battle whales (though the whales apparently most always win).
Dr. Bill, I must disagree. An astrophysics grad student friend and I have spent *many* an hour discussing the relative advantages of giant squid in battle with blue whales, and we've come to the conclusion that the squid would win. See, even though the whales have the sonar thing going on, in addition to sheer bulk, the squid has both speed of mobility and suction power on its side. Not to mention one well-placed tentacle could bring on asphyxia in a matter of... what... hours? That's what they call The Achilles Blowhole.
Please send suggestions for alternative hobbies by PM. Obviously they're sorely needed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
The evidence for squid / blue whale battles comes from scars on blue whale-- living blue whales.. so sometime the whale wins.. and since whales can remain submerged for several hours.. (at least 1.5 hours for small whales, and maybe as long as 3 for large ones). its not as if the have to rush the battle..
AMNH has a big blue whale hanging from a ceiling-- and not far away-- it has a giant cuttle fish-- i'd but my money on the whale most of the time..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Apparently some whales feed on the giant squid. And they obviously have such superior speed that they can choose to attack or evade. Whales have been seen with the tentacle marks on them. No way of knowing how often the whales lose. http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/squid.html This was only URL I could find. It does say the squid are prey. No details, alas. Squid species vary greatly in size. The common squid of the east North Atlantic coast is 30 to 45 cm (12 to 18 in) long, and the giant squid, at least 18 m (60 ft) long, is the largest aquatic invertebrate. It lives at depths of 300 to 600 m (985 to 1970 ft), where it is the prey of sperm whales. "Squid," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
Just to get the words right, cuttlefish and squid ain't the same thing - they are of different taxonomic orders. Also, the largest cuttlefish (the Giant Australian) gets about a meter long, so I'd hesitate putting it up against a whale of any sort. But there's® some breeds of squid I would not want to meet in a dark alley. Also also, have to echo Helen's support for eating both beasts. In Sardinia, cuttlefish are called sepia, and are eaten cooked in their own ink - absolutely delish, don't you think, Bean? Also³, from now on, when I've a question about cephalopods, I'll be sure to consult an astrophysicist.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 53
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 53 |
As an experienced giant squid I can say that I have survived so long by squirting ink in all my enemy's faces! But seriously, often the female giant squid is eaten shortly after laying her eggs as this makes her very weak. She also cannot leave the eggs alone, but must continually clean them. This makes her an easy target.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 53
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 53 |
Squid is a girl, thank you!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
In Sardinia, cuttlefish are called sepia, and are eaten cooked in their own ink - absolutely delish, don't you think, Bean?Hmm...when I last lived in Sardinia, I was eight. Squid/cuttlefish/sepia/calamari were not high on my list of delicacies at that time. My grandmother was cleaning live eels once and one jumped out of her hand and writhed across the kitchen floor...that was enough to scare me away from seafood for 15 years! My dad loves calamari but I hate the smell of them when they are boiled. Yuck and yuck. All those little tentacles! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Squid is a girl, thank you!I knew that, squid! Your language told me that very accurately. A guy would have almost inevitably have said "...with four other guys...", whereas a *girl almost 'nevitably says just as did you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
All those little tentacles! Indeed - did you ever see a very witty camp sci-fi send up film in the last year (title escapes me now), in which the aliens are wonderful sqiud-type creatures who disguise themselves for visual interaction with the 'Star Trek' crew they abduct? Only problem seemed to be when contact became more intimate... is that a tentacle, or are you just pleased (and pleased) (and pleased) (and pleased)...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328 |
a very witty camp sci-fi send up film in the last year (title escapes me now), in which the aliens are wonderful squid-type creatures
That would be Galaxy Quest. A very funny movie, especially if you're familiar with the original Star Trek series. I'm only 22, but my dad introduced me to Captain Kirk and Spock practically while I was still in the womb!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
Saw that film Mav and was pleasantly surprised. I expected the standard send up, but it was a real good laugh.
I once heard that croc bloke speak and, as I remember it, his accent was not as strong a some Australians I've met. Say, if he spoke so poorly then surely King had problems too.. or did he just nod politely?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Thanks, Rapunzel, yes, GQ it was. And yes, I had got dragged along despite my protestations that since I hated Trek and all that crud how could I possibly enjoy it - and then laughed my head off then and on several subsequent viewings! Obligatory language reference: did you like the joke about broken translation equipment?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Why didn't y'all tell me this before? It was on TV the other night and I didn't watch it.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
A guy would have almost inevitably have said "...with four other guys...", whereas a *girl
but the word "guys" is becoming more and more gender neutral these days.
Rod
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
the word "guys" is becoming more and more gender neutral these days.When addressing a group, yes ("Hey you guys! Over here!"). When referring to other people in the third person, it still means "people of the male persuasion". At least to me, and all my friends.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
the word "guys" is becoming more and more gender neutral these days. says Rod
When addressing a group, yes ("Hey you guys! Over here!"). When referring to other people in the third person, it still means "people of the male persuasion". At least to me, and all my friends says Bean.
I find "guy" is without exception male. But in my community, "guys" is often used now in the third person to mean "our gang, group, crowd". Extending your example, "tell the rest of the guys we've gone down the pub". I have heard it often enough in a more specific sense -"the guys in my flat" for example - refering to all females, all males, or some of each, that I now check my understanding if the gender might be important and it is not clear from the context.
Rod
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
'You guys' or 'You lot' is often used to show one is addressing a whole group, as in:
'What are you guys up to now?'
If the 'guys' is omitted then one can't easily discern whether 2nd person singular or plural is implied. It can, of course be said in a different manner, but then succinctness goes to the dogs.
This problem, like so many others, does not exist in other European languages.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
"people of the male persuasion".
Dear Bean: that phrase now covers several groups.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Bean uses the phrase "people of the male persuasion"
The proper term for people of either sex is persons of gender.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Thanks for that - LOL and dribbled my coffe over the keyboard, dammit
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
The proper term for people of either sex...
Isn't that word "people?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
persons of gender.CLEAR AS MUD! Which gender?!?!?!?!?! Re: "guys" Rod and I had discussed this at length previously by PM. From that, and reading these comments, I've now given up trying to explain it. It's all about context, and maybe the accepted uses are regional, and as long as I can understand my friends (both guy friends and girl friends), and they can understand me, I now am officially giving up trying to explain it to anyone! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Bean wonders: CLEAR AS MUD! Which gender?!?!?!?!?!
In standard Germanic grammar compound words take the gender of the last element in the compound. Since man, the English word for human being, irrespective of sex, is grammatically masculine, both sex specific compounds, woman and wapman (no longer used, since it is assumed that to be fully human one must be male) are masculine gender.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Until Betsy has a chance to pack up her whips and chains.. there are plenty of us around who can readily get to where you live-- a beat you to an inch of your life for that little comment Dave! You really must like like to be punished! i can just see, sitting there, grinning from ear to ear-- as gleeful as cat with little yellow canary feathers all about your mouth!Betsy--just give us the word-- ( or are you looking forward to it so much you don't want to share the pleasure? --perfectly understandable!We'll have to have an on line "shower" for Betsy and make sure she has all instruments of torture! i am willing to contribute my straight jacket..i'd offer the handcuffs, but i've lost the key..and yes, i seriously own these things!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Ms. Ledasdottir is willing to contribute her straight jacket.
Won' do ya no good. Betsy oney wears crooked jackets.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Oh-- but i expected Betsy might want to outfit you in the jacket-- and straighten you out!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
and straighten me out
I ain' goin' there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
and straighten me out
I ain' goin' there.
Too late.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
and straighten me out
I ain' goin' there.
Too late.
Make mine strait up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
... no matter how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll ..."??
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
how charged with punishments the scroll
Ain' nobody punishin *my scroll.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
stead of which, we're scrollin your punishment
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
guysAnd, of course, there's absolutely NO discrepancy of gender when you use the phrase "Guys and Dolls!" Oh-oh, the PC Police are after me!...blame Frank Loesser and Damon Runyon! It's not my fault it's immortalized! Besides, Dolls was a New York expression, so it must be worth a reprieve, right Of Troy???... No!...No, not the handcuffs, please!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
The proper term for people of either sex...I thought it was "bisexuals" Rod
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
With "you" on its own,one can't easily discern whether 2nd person singular or plural is implied. This problem, like so many others, does not exist in other European languages.In the context of "guys", "you lot" this is true, at least amongst the European languages I know a bit of. However, the problem reappears for some contexts in French, German, and Czech (at least) with the use of the 2nd person plural for the polite form. Does anyone know of a list (or can we compile one between us) of languages which use the 2nd person plural as a polite form for the singular. Italian and Spanish have polite forms but they are distinct. Please correct any inaccuracies in the above. As if you needed any prompting . Rod
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315 |
2nd person plural as a polite form for the singular. Italian and Spanish have polite forms but they are distinct.
Even in Italian it is possible to find the 2nd person plural as a polite form, but it is archaic or southerner.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
The proper term for people of either sex...Rod thought it was "bisexuals" Don't you mean "ambisexuals"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Does anyone know of a list (or can we compile one between us) of languages which use the 2nd person plural as a polite form for the singular. Italian and Spanish have polite forms but they are distinct.
Turkish.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
"ambisexuals"Oi troid ridin' one o they fings, but me hands kept slippin orf the andlebars
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
.......concave or convex to fit either sex.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
2nd person plural as a polite form for the singular. Italian and Spanish have polite forms but they are distinct.
Even in Italian it is possible to find the 2nd person plural as a polite form, but it is archaic or southerner.
Same is true for Spanish, although the full form of the 2nd person plural pronoun (vosotros) is shortened to "vos" in some countries.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
As my comparative anthropology professor likes to remind me (although I'm not sure I necessarily agree)...
"Sex" is based on physical characteristics, while "gender" is a social construct based on the characteristic social roles of each sex.
And if anyone takes "Sex is based on physical characteristics" out of context....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724 |
> Does anyone know of a list (or can we compile one between us) of languages which use the 2nd person plural as a polite form for the singular.
Almost all the Indian languages will go into the list. Bengali (or Bangla) has only 2nd person plural and no familiar form for the Singular. Hindi/Urdu has three levels :
- the 2nd person plural as a polite form (aap)
- a part polite- part familiar form, distinct from the 2nd person plural (Tum)
- a familiar form (Tu)
This reminds me of lines from a Ghazal by the Pakistani singer Mehdi Hassan. The translation :
As love passed all limits, all ceremony we overcame
First 'aap' then 'tum', and then worthy of 'Tu' became.
For those who know the language this is the original:
Pyaar jab hud se badhha, saare takalluf mit gaye
'Aap' se phir 'tum' huye, phir 'tu' ka unwan ho gaye.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
Avy, thanks for that post and the poem. I find it interesting that a wide range of languages have this trait of using the 2nd person plural as the polite form of the singular. A couple of follow up questions, if I may: Do these languages have a word for using the familiar form as French does (tutoyer)? When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular? Was it through using the plural as a polite form and the English being over polite? . Like the story of the two Englishmen travelling on a train for days in India and not speaking to each other because they hadn't been introduced. Rod
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724 |
No Rod, there is no word for familiarity arising from the word tu (I think that is what you mean). There are other words for familiarity.
>I find it interesting that a wide range of languages have this trait of using the 2nd person plural as the polite form of the third person singular.
Indian languages also have third person plural used as a polite form for third person singular. Does that happen in French too?
> When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
I thought thee thou was dropped because it was thought too polite?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
Bunch of Revolutionaries, that's us Americans!
All men (and women) created equal ....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609 |
there is no word for familiarity arising from the word tu (in Malay)
French has the verbs (and nouns from them) tutoyer and vouvoyer which mean using the familiar and polite forms of "you". So children might be instructed to "vouvoyer" a distant uncle, or acquaintances might agree they have known each other long enough to "tutoyer" each other.
I will have to look at my reference books to see if any other languages in my pile have a third person polite form. I am fairly sure French doesn't (which is where someone pops up with an obscure french dialect and proves me wrong).
The other point of interest is the common use of the word "tu" for "you" in Malay and French (and other languages in variation). Is this an example of an "early" word surviving all this time?
Rod
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 724 |
Another aspect which has always interested me is that certain (basic) words begin with the same sounds in Hindi/Urdu and English perhaps other languages too. For example the word for Sun is Suraj/ Surya in my language - something about the sound "S" that fits the characteristics of a sun? The word for Door is Darvaza, perhaps "D" is a nice solid door-like sound. There are other words too - but maybe this is just a coincidence.
I have not been able to find the equivilant of "tutoyer" in Hindi. I think children are told "Don't say tu say Aap!" But I will keep looking - there must be a word.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
In reply to:
When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
As to how, it just stopped being used, replaced by the plural, except that the nominative "Ye" was replaced by "You". As to when, it happened in the first half of the 17th century in England. It was still in regular use at the time the King James Version of the Bible was produced (1611), but you have to bear in mind that that work was produced by mature men who, presumably, spoke and wrote the language they learned in the last quarter of the 16th century. But by the 1620's, you find it being used less, and by the Restoration period (1660's), it's not being used regularly except for poetical and liturgical purposes. In fact, you can track the process to some degree in the work of a single author, John Donne, in his poems, letters and sermons. (By the time he died, 1630, he was not using the singular regularly, although he did in his early works.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
When and how did English lose the 2nd person singular?
There was a transition period during which both were used. The 2nd plural was used when speaking up to someone, i.e., a peasant to a lord. The 2nd singular was used when speaking down or with people with whom one was intimate. A careful reading of Shakespeare plays will show that this is pretty much the way he depicted people speaking.
It is my guess that this was rooted in the desire to aggrandize the upper levels of society. The point at which you switched from 2nd singular to 2nd plural gradually rolled downhill until everyone became the recipient of the 2nd plural.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
" the nominative "Ye" was "
A point of information, please: Was the "Y" actually a "thorn" or not" ? Was "Ye" pronounced "Thee"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Was the Y in Ye a thorn?
No, it was pronounced Ye. The use of a Y to represent thorn, as in Ye Olde Shoppe, is a cutesey-wutesey modern practice not based on any historic use in English.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Was the "Y" actually a "thorn" or not" ?
The Y in Ye Olde Frappe Shoppe was a Þ. The one in you was not. The OE dative and accusative 2nd person plural was Eow. Incidentally, the subjective and objective in the 2nd person plural were ye and you respectively. In the 2nd person singular they were thou and thee with the vowels reversed.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,328
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
703
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
