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#29300 - 05/17/01 04:19 AM Re: trompe
rodward Offline
addict

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 609
Loc: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
Rod says: However I believe that only "trompe l'oeil" is correct.
Then how come you were using "trompe d'oeil" in your previous post?
asks confused of Atlanta.

AS. I was responding to CK's post in which he used "trompe d'oeil", but (mea culpa) didn't notice the mistake until you asked your question about "trompe l'oeil". I hide behind the fact that the frequent use of "trompe d'oeil" has inured me to its (probable) incorrectness. Any native/bi-lingual French speakers care to make a definitive statement?

Rod



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#29301 - 05/17/01 04:58 AM Re: trompe
Capital Kiwi Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 3146
Loc: Northamptonshire, England
What a laugh - you've all been arguing over a bloody spelling mistake! I intended trompe l'oeil..

And I stand by my statement. Trompe l'oeil may not have been invented during the Rennaissance, but it came into its own then as part of art and architecture. The deception originally was the extension of an object by painting "more" of it - hence the architectural focus. The best translation of it that I've seen is "optical deception" or "trick of the eye". It was used to "visually extend" a room or a building, or even the view from a window. This was why it was photographically realistic in nature. The term has simply transmuted over time into anything which is an device for optical illusion, again either in art or in architecture.

(Damn, I KNEW those art history classes would come in handy one day!)

_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#29302 - 05/17/01 05:40 AM Re: trompe
rodward Offline
addict

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 609
Loc: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
you've all been arguing over a bloody spelling mistake! I intended trompe l'oeil..
says CK.

CK, no matter it was a slip by your good self, a quick google will show thet the two terms are used interchangeably. It is perfectly valid to question which term is (or whether both are) correct.

And it's a shame that the Renaissance photographer's film got spoilt at the developers. I suppose that any "deceit of the eye" must be to a large degree "photographically realistic". I agree that the vast body of trompe l'oeil work is of the nature you describe, I just don't think that the term has ever been limited to it. But I wasn't around at the time, and it is a very small point to be arguing about. We could start the "War of Tromp's eye" if you like?

Rod


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#29303 - 05/17/01 07:55 AM Re: trump Louie
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13783
He din't do nothin to earn my ire. We wuz playin bridge an he led a heart. I wuz outta hearts but I had me a spade (the trey) an spades wuz trump. I took that trick an the nex five an beat his tiny clunem. But I don' hate him er nuthin.


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#29304 - 05/17/01 08:17 AM Re: Name for a pictorial illusion
NicholasW Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/00
Posts: 393
Loc: London
Wittgenstein made something of this in the Investigations--unfortunately, I don't remember what it was and my books are still packed--any takers?

Duck-wabbit.

I'm sorry, I'll read that again. Duck-rabbit.

He was making the point that we don't just see things (ducks, rabbits, drawings), we see things as things (the drawing as a duck or a wabbit).


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#29305 - 05/17/01 08:30 AM Re: Name for a pictorial illusion
Jackie Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11605
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
we don't just see things (ducks, rabbits, drawings), we see things as things (the drawing as a duck or a wabbit).

Yes! Minds are amazing, are they not? Like in some of those illusion pictures: for ex., inside a grid of dots there is a blank, three-sided space, and we "see" a triangle, even though there are no lines defining the boundaries. We're seeing what isn't there. Gee--is that
mental ullage?



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#29306 - 05/17/01 08:41 AM Re: trompe
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
Cap'nK guffaws: What a laugh - you've all been arguing over a bloody spelling mistake!

Yeah, and here, of all places!


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#29307 - 05/17/01 08:44 AM Re: trompe
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
Rod, thanks for your indulgence. I am always confused when it comes to French.hi, F!


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#29308 - 05/17/01 08:50 AM Re: trompe
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13783
CapK states: ]I KNEW those art history classes would come in handy one day!

So does this date back to Rome? We see all those fancy painted walls in Pompeii.


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#29309 - 05/17/01 06:17 PM Re: trompel'oeil
Lucy Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 28
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Thank you all for your contributions - this really is an excellent forum for this sort of query.

We'd thought of 'trompe l'oeil' but in our experience the term seems to be restricted to architectural type uses (ceilings, wall paintings etc) not small book illustrations. If we're wrong, (distinctly possible!) then perhaps that's the problem solved. An example of it being used in this way would be manna.

Emanuela, I knew the Holbein (etc) trick of distortion but didn't know the word 'anamorfosi' - thank you. I'll chase that up, but it still may not be the correct word for our purpose, as in 'The Ambassadors' (for example) the skull is merely distorted - it doesn't really have two meaningful views.

We wondered about 'pictogram' - but don't seem to be getting very far with this line of thought. Oh the delights of one small gloss.


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