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#27940 05/01/01 12:26 PM
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of troy Offline OP
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In the Arab headgear thread– ROD had brought up something in jest– the I think could be explored–
Just what is the preferred term for those members of the human race that have the primary reproductive responsibility?

Some years ago, James Stephen's (author) in his book of short story's "Here are Ladies" (made into an off Broadway show in the 1970's) pointed out what a wonderful democracy the US was– the in America even a char woman was a cleaning lady.

But now days, I think most of us prefer woman to lady. (And in some ways being defined as "Lady like" is not the same level of a of compliment is once was.)

Girls is almost a taboo word to use with a female over the age of 15– and young lady is verboten for women over 21. Both tend to sound condescending. But among ourselves– we sometimes have a Girl's night out

So in America– we have gone round– and instead of all being ladies– we have all become women.

Or is this just a NY feminist view? From one half– I'd like to learn the terms you like use to describe/define you– and from the other half– what words do you use– or have learned not to use? And what about signage? Ladies rooms? Or woman's room?

Lady's clothing? Or women's clothing In US- these two term are used to define sizes with women clothing being a large size range– but there are stores that advertize Women's clothing and mean all sizes– and include in their selection are dressy suits and or party dresses.

Or other areas....


#27941 05/01/01 12:50 PM
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Ladies rooms?

At one of the buildings in Cornell University several many years ago some event of sufficient draw for many non-U people to attend prompted some ad hoc signs to be posted to facilitate the finding of the rest rooms. One of the signs read Ladies' Room with an arrow to point towards the location. Someone, in the spirit of the feminist classic, had crossed out the Ladies' and written in Women's. Someone else, skipping a step, had crossed out Women's and written in Woperdaughter's.


#27942 05/01/01 12:52 PM
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G
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Interesting stuff, this! I've long associated woman with the OE wif-man, or wife-man, so there seems to be an ancient suggestion of chattel therein. Call me a chauvinist swine if you will, but I've long considered man to be non-gender-specific in certain contexts.

As for girl, did it not originally mean any young person?


#27943 05/01/01 12:52 PM
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Still bearing the scars from the wet cous-cous (and how on earth did I explain that away to my wife) I am going to keep my mouth shut for a while! But I have asked my daughter the question to get a UK female mid 20s (GSH, seeks relationship..) perspective on the subject.

On the specific question of signage, in the UK the majority of toilets for females that are word signed have "Ladies" but "Women" is common also. Apart from the jokey or themed signs, like the ones in the Veterans club that says "No Man's Land".

Rod



#27944 05/01/01 12:58 PM
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Michigan usage, at least in business and professional circles, indicates that "woman" is preferred, if not "person." There are "chairpersons" of committees, often shortened to "chair." "Lady" is rarely used, except in the introductory phrase, "ladies and gentlemen."

Preferences as to honorifics tend to vary with the professional and social setting; it seems to me that most lawyers, accountants and business managers use "Ms," but that "Mrs" and "Miss" are used by school teachers.

I am happy to report that the use of "Sir" and "Ma'am" have regained acceptance in my circles in recent years. It might be in part because I kept addressing people that way, and they got used to it...


#27945 05/01/01 01:04 PM
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Geoff protests: Call me a chauvinist swine if you will, but I've long considered man to be non-gender-specific in certain contexts.

The word man is, at root, an Old English word meaning human being. The commonly used words for males and females were, respectively, wer and wif. While it was possible to refer to wæpmen and wifmen, I have, in my very limited reading, seen only wæpcynd and wifcynd.

The idea that to be a man you have to be male is the sexist notion. Referring to females as men is not.

Women take back your manhood!


#27946 05/01/01 01:28 PM
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And what about signage? Ladies rooms? Or woman's room?

Most places here actually use the woman symbol - you know, that one with a skirt that looks like a cookie cutter. Otherwise, I usually see "Ladies". But I never really paid attention. I think in general in Canada we use non-verbal signs, possibly for the benefit of those who can't read. Especially on the highway. But that's off topic.


#27947 05/01/01 01:47 PM
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In Germany, of course, the women's rooms are labeled Herren and the men's rooms Da Men.


#27948 05/01/01 01:52 PM
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In reply to:

In Germany, of course, the women's rooms are labeled Herren and the men's rooms Da Men.


Are you sure you don't mean Chicago?


#27949 05/01/01 02:11 PM
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from my daughter, 25 yr old working and living in London:

Ladies - formal context eg in conjunction with gentlemen, or in social
events. If used in work context tends to be condescending. Think Barry
White. Or Alan B'stard.
Women - the generic. Used by men and women, no issues. Just don't overuse it - "people" is to be preferred.
Girls - informal context eg "get the girls to come out for a curry too". Don't use in work unless the girls in your team are using it themselves. Can be used between men in that context.
Females - never ever. Think "creatures" or "the male of the species" as the correct context.
Gals - even more informal and joking, generally used by the old git of the office when joking around.
Birds - the drinking man's reference to the ladies...
Boids - the drunk man's reference to the ladies..
Bitches - ridiculous reference, only to be used in prison situations
Witches - me, nicola and naomi...

(Must-remember-to-stop-using-Gals emoticon)

That gels with my understanding,

Which gender specific words for professions are still acceptable? Usher has been used for both sexes (no more Usherette) for a while now, as has conductor, not that we have them on buses any more. But waiter/waitress, actor/actress and so on? Some of these have generalised in the plural but not yet (in my experience) to the singular. I don't in general like words of the "waitperson" construction. I accept chairperson, but words such as chairman don't signify the male sex to me anyway.

Rod



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