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#2687 - 05/26/00 10:14 AM Re: Chauvinist
Rubrick Offline
addict

Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 679
Loc: Somewhere outside New York
> That's a bit of a distortion, I think. Seeing as how it was applied in a very narrow sense to overly patriotic "veterans of the
Napoleonic Wars", that pretty much excludes women (without saying anything directly about them)! I'm not going to
claim that sexism wasn't (or was) rampant at the time, but neither does this word, in the original sense, say anything
about it. (IMHO)

Quite right. But my last post was peppered with speculation and presumptions. I presumed that the vast majority of the veterans were men (as most likely was the case) and, as such, that that definition would apply to them and not to the female minority.

The reference to sexism was an aside and has nothing to do with the definition or my interpretation of it.

> Take another look at the OED citations if you get a chance. With these you can trace the evolution
of the usage. I don't think you can make the case for any "resurgence".
Clearly, the move from the narrow, jingoistic sense to the broader usages follow. I think that the
Carl Sagan usage was to the effect that people who expect aliens to have a humanoid appearance
are being carbon-chauvinists! (see, there you go assuming I meant Carl was a sexist!! ;)

Point taken. Jingoism dates from pre-suffragette (suffragist) times so could this be a step in the evolutionary cycle of 'chauvinism' -> 'male chauvinism'? i.e. that it was attributed to the male-dominated jingoists by the female-dominated suffragettes (or am I losing the plot here?).

Of course I wasn't calling Carl a sexist - I called him a chauvinist!!


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#2688 - 05/26/00 10:25 AM Re: Chauvinist
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10521
Loc: this too shall pass
okay, I *think I see where you're coming from now. By saying that it was a male concept to begin with, you would claim that saying "male" chauvinist is redundant. But the problem with that is that the modifier speaks to "what" it is you are being "overly patriotic" to, and not about what sex you are! Thus, a male-chauvinist is overly dedicated to the male cause, a female-chauvinist to the female cause and a carbon-chauvinist to the carbon-based lifeform cause.
Does this help?

for those following along at home, here's the MWCD definition, which shows the sense progression (and recall that it took 100 years to arrive at sense 3)

chau*vin*ism (noun)

[French chauvinisme, from Nicolas Chauvin, character noted for his excessive patriotism and devotion to Napoleon in Theodore and Hippolyte Cogniard's play La Cocarde tricolore (1831)]

First appeared 1870

1 : excessive or blind patriotism -- compare JINGOISM

2 : undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged

3 : an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex; also : behavior expressive of such an attitude

-- chau*vin*ist (noun or adjective)

-- chau*vin*is*tic (adjective)

-- chau*vin*is*ti*cal*ly (adverb)


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#2689 - 05/26/00 10:35 AM Re: Chauvinist
Rubrick Offline
addict

Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 679
Loc: Somewhere outside New York
> okay, I *think I see where you're coming from now. By saying that it was a male concept to being with, you would claim
that saying "male" chauvinist is redundant. But the problem with that is that the modifier speaks to "what" it is you are
being "overly patriotic" to, and not about what sex you are! Thus, a male-chauvinist is overly dedicated to the male
cause, a female-chauvinist to the female cause and a carbon-chauvinist to the carbon-based lifeform cause.
Does this help?

Nooooo. Mommy, my head hurts.

I thought a woman overly dedicated to the female cause was a feminist. After all, you never hear of a maleist, do you?? (or do you?).


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#2690 - 05/26/00 10:40 AM Re: Chauvinist
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10521
Loc: this too shall pass
the 'opposite' of a feminist is a masculinist (MWCD: an advocate of male superiority or dominance), actually.


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#2691 - 05/26/00 10:45 AM Re: Chauvinist
Rubrick Offline
addict

Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 679
Loc: Somewhere outside New York
> the 'opposite' of a feminist is a masculinist (MWCD: an advocate of male superiority or dominance), actually.

Of course it is! Male - Female. Masculine - Feminine. Put that slight overlook down to Friday evening ennui.

Have a good weekend!

'brick


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#2692 - 05/26/00 03:08 PM Re: Latin
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Dr. Sieber,
I can't say for sure either (but will ask my expert friend
asap) about the use of Latin, but I think you're
probably right.
Something that goes along with this is the development of
stained glass windows in churches. Commoners could neither
read, nor understand what the priests were saying, so these
windows were a way of getting the message across.


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#2693 - 05/26/00 03:13 PM Re: Chauvinist
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
>Ladies. Care to throw in your valuable comments?<

Well, thanks, 'Brick, but I will invoke one of my favorite
sayings here: "I just love work. I can sit around and
watch it all day."

You two fellas are fielding flying fake fisticuffs just
fine. 'Preciate your-all's good manners!






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#2694 - 05/26/00 05:37 PM Re: Chauvinist
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10521
Loc: this too shall pass
>I thought a woman overly dedicated to the female cause was a feminist.

okay (now that we got past the 'malist' tangent <g>), we've arrived at my point. consider our definitions:

chauvinism - 3) an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex

masculinist - an advocate of male superiority or dominance

so, by definition, a male chauvinist is a masculinist.

okay, so we started out with chauvinist having a very narrow definition; over time the definition became broader in that it was applied to various groups and places (see sense #2). And then it shifted to the *narrow* sense of sexist, and (the worst!), because we all know <ahem> that men are more prone to being sexist, we've (again, this may be unique to the US) arrived at chauvinist being used as a synonym for masculinist!

[this is similar to what happened with 'decimate', which started out applying to a narrow ratio (1 in 10) of punishment and the definition was broadened to include "a large part of" (and then it got misused by *narrowing* application to specific ratios other than 1 in 10).]

...and a good weekend to you too, 'brick!


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#2695 - 05/27/00 12:54 PM Re: Chauvinist
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981
>Ladies. Care to throw in your valuable comments?<

No, like Jackie its just fine and dandy to watch you boys there slugging it out.

Not sure we're answering to "ladies" at the moment - thought it was a sign on them there "restrooms" we were talking about.


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#2696 - 05/27/00 03:11 PM Re: Latin
juanmaria Offline
member

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 163
Loc: Malaga, Spain.
Itís amazing how things we are taken for granted may be recent in a historical point of view. Even mankind might be considered a recent phenomenon through earth history -but Iím digressing-.
I imagine that by the end of 15th Century Gutenbergís invention started putting an end to that local Babel Tower.


Juan Maria.

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