Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
#25340 03/29/01 05:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Per request from inselpeter in WordPlay

Nautical Terms:

Walls --- transverse members of the ribs between the double bottoms.

Ceiling -- The inner hull; the inner part of the double bottoms. Generally not watertight.

Door -- An opening through a bulkhead.

Hatch -- An opening through a deck.

Manhole -- An opening through a hatch.

Quiz question:
Where are the head lights on a ship?


#25341 03/29/01 07:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
A great source for more obscure nautical terms is A Sea of Words by Dean King. It's a companion book to the Patrick O'Brian novels (which I recommended in the Book Recommendations thread) and really has some amazing stuff. Unfortunately, it somehow missed a few key phrases used in the books, most notably "a cheese of wads."

In spite of reading lots of fiction set during the age of sail, I haven't heard the term head lights. It may be more modern - but I'd guess it means the light in the head, aka the privy.


#25342 03/29/01 07:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
B
veteran
Offline
veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
I agree with Hyla about the head lights.

Re ceiling: A ship which is going to carry foodstuffs, like grain, in bulk, which is poured/loaded directly, and with no packaging of any kind, into the hold of a ship, generally has to be protected from contamination, moisture and rats by a ceiling. There are ship ceilers, who build a ceiling, or wooden inner liner, in the holds, and it covers the bottom and walls (bulkheads) of the hold. Hence, the bottom, which a landlubber would call a floor, is a ceiling! There's glory for you.


#25343 03/29/01 07:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
B
veteran
Offline
veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
ladders = stairs
abaft = towards the rear, or stern
abeam = at right angles to the keel, across the width
able-bodied [seaman] = experienced, but not necessarily entirely physically capable
forward = towards the front, or prow
starboard = right side, when facing forward
port = left side, when facing forward
larboard = obsolete term for 'port'
pitch = to rock back to front or vice versa, along the axis of the keel
roll = to rock sideways, at right angles (more or less) to the keel
heave = to rock up and down
yaw = slide down [a wave] in a diagonal direction



#25344 03/29/01 08:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
able-bodied [seaman]

A crew-member was typically rated as the above when he demonstrated that he could "hand, reef, and steer."

This means he could: roll up and secure (or furl) a sail, tie a reef knot (and presumably other needed knots), and steer the ship when on duty at the helm.


#25345 03/29/01 11:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Here are some I especially like, culled from yours:

larboard
yaw
hand, reef, and steer.
ship ceiler

I guess I'm looking for words that came with the sea, salt crusts and drowning. Parts of boats we've seen, like jib or thwart, a reef I sailed past once outside Gloucester Harbor: The Reef of Norman's woe. Bow sprits (fog sprits, to take a gander at your riddle, faldage). I liked yar when Catherine Hepburn said it. All those things Melville goes on and on with in the 90% primer that's Moby Dick. Romantic stuff. In Flensburg, I think it is, there's a bronze statue of a fisherman, wet and bone cold, carrying his drowned daughter in his arms. What words would he have used then?

Thanks,
Binky
[bad pun intentionally omitted]



#25346 03/29/01 11:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
Not sure what the fisherman would have said, but he would certainly have wondered what the hell his daughter was doing on board his boat. In the age of sail, at least in Europe, it was generally considered bad luck to have a woman on board ship, and I understand that persists to some degree.

Related to this, one very interesting term is "Jonah" - in the case of a ship that was having a run of bad luck (losing battles, not catching fish, whatever) this was applied to the individual sailor who was thought to be the source of the bad luck. He would often be singled out because of some oddity or flaw of his character, such as being left-handed or holding unorthodox beliefs. I assume the term comes from the biblical character swallowed by the whale, but I've never looked into the etymology.

One of my favorite terms for describing a location on a ship is "abaft the starboard mainchains." I'm also partial to hawse-hole - the hole where the anchor cable passed out of the cable tier and attached to the anchor - as well as cathead - which I think is where the anchor hangs when not in use, but I don't recall for sure.

If this thread survives until Monday, perhaps I'll grab my copy of Sea of Words and provide a few more gems.

Hyla verbosii nauticalorum


#25347 03/29/01 11:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
<<I assume the term comes from the biblical character swallowed by the whale, but I've never looked into the etymology.>>

Can't remember the story, exactly. They put Jonah in the hold when the storm came up, and when they threw him overboard, it instantly abated. I might have that wrong, but someone's bound to right it.

There's a wonderful quasi-cabalistic interpretation of the tale, that put's Johna in the furthest reaches of hell. So deep, God can't hear him when he calls to Him.

Binky


#25348 03/30/01 12:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Companionway - another word for "stairs"


#25349 03/30/01 01:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
there's a bronze statue of a fisherman, wet and bone cold, carrying his drowned daughter in his arms. What words would he have used then?

"Out of the depths I cry, O Lord, hear me."



#25350 03/30/01 02:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Naturally, the next question will be where these words come from.

Binky


#25351 03/30/01 04:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18
K
stranger
Offline
stranger
K
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18
Hello,
One word that is said to have arisen from travelling by sea is `posh'. I read in a book, on British rule in India, that it is an abbreviation for `portside outward starboard homeword' to signify the best rooms in the ship to avoid the heat while travelling from Europe to Asia and back. However, the M-W Online Dictionary says that the etymology is unknown, and the word appeared in 1918.

Regards,
Manoj.

Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E

http://www.geocities.com/kummini/


Bangalore India
12°58' N, 77°39' E

http://www.geocities.com/kummini/index.html
#25352 03/30/01 08:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
A problem which was rarely, if ever, encountered in the days of sail, but which is very much a problem with today's much larger ships and particularly oil tankers, is "hogging" and "sagging". Hogging is where the ship is "crested" on a large wave with little or no water supporting the ends of the ship. Sagging is when the ship is supported by two waves, one at either end of the ship, allowing it to sag between them. It's the reason why half the oil tankers which sink go down. They twist and distort as they hog and sag and eventually the ship's back is broken. Hello, Davy Jones! (no, NOT the little git in the Monkees!)



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#25353 03/30/01 09:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
"Show (or shake) a Leg" (now) meaning "to get out of bed"

Supposedly shouted at sailors in their hammocks either (by some sources) to prove they were awake, or (by others) to prove that the lump still in the hammock was female and was still entitled to be sleeping off the night's exertions before she was bundled back ashore with the other prostitutes. And, no, there was not enough room to try standing up. HMS Victory in Portsmouth (UK) is an excellent visit to see what conditions were like in the good old days.

Rod Ward

#25354 03/30/01 09:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
Ceiling -- The inner hull; the inner part of the double bottoms. Generally not watertight

The larger amongst us might be interested in the term "Ceiling" for a double bottom. I'm not quite so certain about the "Generally not watertight" bit.

Rod Ward

#25355 03/30/01 10:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
heads:- related word ????

I remember (30 years ago now) coming across the term "go-head" for the type of footwear that was just a rubber sole with a toe strap. I was offered two etymologies:
1) That you could only "go ahead", if you walked backwards, the shoe fell off.
2) That you used them to "go to the head", which could be mucky and slippery, but they could be rinsed.

Any one else remember this term? Is it still current? Comments on the origins?

Rod Ward

#25356 03/30/01 12:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
It's the reason why half the oil tankers which sink go down.

Cap,

And why the other the half that sink stay afloat! (Sorry, *love* the post, but can't help myself.)

This is Binky, wishing you a pleasant from the rings of Saturn, signing off.

#25357 03/30/01 01:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
I'm not sure about the "Generally not watertight" bit either. I don't remember that being pointed out during my Navy days. I ran into it recently, I think on the radio.


Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Here's a few to go on with as I think awhile :
Line Honors An Australian term for being the first yacht to finish in an ocean going race.
Rocks and shoals those parts of the U.S. Navy regulations which concern punishment for offenses. They were read (in former days) periodically by the executive officer of a naval vessel to the assembled company.
Jimmy Squarefoot a mythical being at the sea bottom (Davy Jones)
aweigh the position of an anchor which has been broken out and is off the bottom. (as in "Anchors aweigh my lads" navy song)
away an order to shove off - "Away boats." Also to lower a boat or draft of cargo - "Lower away."

And by the way, for the non-nautical the title Boatswain is pronounced Bo's'n. (a subordinate but very valuable officer; a warrant officer of great importance in naval service. )
wow



#25359 03/30/01 06:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
B
veteran
Offline
veteran
B
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
hogging
Actually, hogging was indeed a problem in the days of sail, at least with wooden ships, in which context it means a warping or bowing upward of the keel, which causes the nails and spikes to start and the strakes to bow, eventually becoming catastrophic. This problem was detected a few years ago in the Constellation, the tourist centerpiece of Baltimore's Inner Harbor. Constellation was earlier thought to be the sister ship of Constitution, or "Old Ironsides", which is in Boston harbor, and thus of Revolutionary War vintage; but research about 10 years ago established definitively that the original Constellation was lost in the 1840's and the present ship is a newer ship built about 1855, carrying the same name, but very much like the original in appearance. Anyway, when it was discovered that she was hogging, a number of local businesses and persons gave money, as did the City and the State, for repairs, which came to several million dollars. She was towed from her berth in the inner harbor with emergency auxiliary boats alongside in case she sank en route, but she didn't. Most of the planking near the keel and all the lower decking etc. had to be removed so the keel could be straightened; then everything went back together. Took 2 years, but the old girl is back in her place and looking better than ever. Needless to say, in Baltimore we're as proud of her as Bostonians are of Constitution.

Back to words:
A favorite of mine, encountered in Horatio Hornblower novels, is "handsomely", which, I believe means "slowly" (or is it the opposite?) I checked the MW in my office and the on-line dictionaries and thesaurus, but they don't have this meaning listed.


Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Line Honors An Australian term for being the first yacht to finish in an ocean going race.


¿Qué? I was of the impression that line honours was the standard term for it, not simply an Australian term. I have heard it used in British commentary for the race at Cowes, and it is of course routinely heard in connexion with the various round-the-world races. It recognises the fact that the boats may be in different size classes, so the boat that crosses first may not win, on handicap.




Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Rocks and shoals

In my day the lifers, when they wanted to stress how bad it used to be, and how we were such wimps for complaining, would assault us with tales of life in the Old Navy under the Rocks and Shoals. That was the slang term for the rules that preceded the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Under the UCMJ the common sailor has some rights and can't be taken out and shot at the whim of the Captain. Whenever I see some innocent youngster tromping around in some article of clothing with Old Navy stamped all over it I think of the old days under the Rocks and Shoals and wonder all over again why someone would be proud of it.


Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
The good old days of iron men in wooden ships, versus todays iron ships and wooden men.


Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Scuttlebutt.

A scuttle is an opening in a hatch or the side of a ship to admit air. In the olden days, they kept the drinking water in a cask - a butt - on deck, with a hole - a scuttle - cut in its side. Sailors gathered around the scuttlebutt to drink, and naturally watercooler talk ensued. Hence, "scuttlebutt" came to refer to gossip.


Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
scud or scudding-- to move swifty
scudding to to run before a gale-- white sails in a scudding race with the clouds..--




#25365 04/08/01 02:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
The sheet anchor - in bygone days- was carried in the waist (between the forecastle and quarterdeck) and was the largest anchor and was always ready for use in an emergency. The term came to mean "security" among seamen.
There is a rare but extraordinary book called "The Young Officer's Sheet Anchor" which was often given to young officers setting out on their first voyage.
It contains, among other things, sail settings for various situations and was an invaluable guide for men in ships under sail.
wow


#25367 04/08/01 04:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
Recalled a few more great nautical terms (and, Mr. Youngbalt, if you're a Hornblower fan, do be sure you've read the Patrick O'Brian series as well - different, but equally good).

One of my favorites, still in circulation today in non-nautical parlance, but of nautical origin is "slush fund." Slush was the fat used by the ship's cook for frying, etc. - and was considered quite a delicacy. "Slush fund" may have evolved a couple of ways - either that the cook could essentially use the slush as money, buying things from the crew in exchange for slush for their bread - a real treat in the days of salpork and dried peas. Or the cook actually had a fund of money, to be used in port to procure slush and other necessities specific to the cook - but which could end up being used somewhat flexibly, should the cook need to procure something else. In either case, it means a resource, not monitored by the powers that be, that can be used to acquire things outside of the official manner. There's a vary brief, colorul discussion of this in one of Patrick O'Brian's novels, but, alas, they are all stowed belowdecks in preparation for my family weighing anchor and setting a course for our new house.

Handsomely, used at sea or by seaman, does in fact mean slowly, with a connotation of carefully as well.

Another favorite, which I tried to use in day-to-day parlance for a while, but which failed to take, is "light along." It means "bring me" as in "light along my best glass, there's a ship hull-up [meaning hull is visible, so it's fairly close] on the horizon." It also means to help out in hauling on lines of various sorts.

Speaking of lines - we discussed sheets, etc. - there are actually quite a few different types of lines.

sheets - line used to haul sails
shrouds - main lines used in the rigging
ratlines - short horizontal lines used in the rigging - usually made of rope covered in tar
braces - line attached to the end of a yard (horizontal beam off the mast), used to swing the sail
cable - anchor line - cut to a standard length, and thus also used as a unit of measure (100 fathoms)
hawser - heaviest line, I believe

That's all I've got for now.



#25368 04/08/01 04:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Cool, Hyla, thanks!


Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Max wrote :I was of the impression that line honours was the standard term for it, not simply an Australian term.

In my Mariner's Dictionary it is spelled Line Honours. When I posted I wrote Honors ...ooops!
Could the spelling make a difference?



Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Could the spelling make a difference?

I would not have thought so. The rest of us would expect USn's to use their trademark "Reader's Digest condensed" spelling!


#25371 04/09/01 04:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Slush was the fat used by the ship's cook for frying, etc. - and was considered quite a delicacy.

"Slushy" was often the name the ship's cook went by. They were considered uncouth and grasping by the seamen, particularly during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Quite often, the slush fund was used by the cook for the cook's personal benefit, particularly on ill-run ships where the officers couldn't have cared less about the welfare of the men. I read somewhere about a particularly tyrannical cook who managed to amass most of the men's paid wages during a voyage. When the ship returned home, the cook went missing and was never seen or heard from again. 'Ware slush funds!



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
"Reader's Digest condensed" spelling!

Oooh! Max!

Touché


Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
R
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
R
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
I've always been partial to Royal Naval slang, which is colourful and expressive. I have probably forgotten more than I remember, but some of the notable expressions are:-

"Hoggin" - short for hogwash, i.e. the sea

"Killick" - a leading hand, e.g, a "killick sparks" was a Leading Telegraphist" (actually a radio operator). The Petty Officer Telegraphist, naturally enough, was known as POTS. Seamen involved with visual signals were know as "Flags" or "Bunty" (for "bunting").

Stokers were always referred to as being "hairy-eared" (actually, it wasn't their ears that were mentioned, but an entirely lower area of their anatomy - but delicacy forbids, etc)

Whenever a feast was arranged - usually on shore, rather than on board - it was referred to as "Big Eats!"

Another endearing habit of the RN was to issue the order "lash up and stow" soon afgter reveille, right on into the 1960s (possibly even into the 70s), long after safe, comfortable hammocks had been replaced by highly uncomfortable bunks

There are hundreds more - and they changed from time to time, of course, so that you may tell when an ex-matelot served by the slang he uses.

Anmd this is not even touching on the topic of nick-names! That almost deserves a thread of its own.



Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
"Hoggin" - short for hogwash

Thanks for that! Funny thing language - I have staggered through life having heard that (as a kid) as 'oggin', which I had assumed was simply a playful stab at 'ocean'! So I have learnt my Fact-A-Day early this lunchtime


Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Rhuby has always been partial to Royal Naval slang.

Some American examples:

Signalman: Skivvie Waver. Skivvies are underpants.

Machinist's Mate: Mickey Mouse. The abbreviation is MM and the symbol worn on the uniform is a three bladed ship's propeller that looks like a Mickey Mouse head.

Hospital Corpsman: Aviation Snake Charmer. The symbols worn on the uniform for aviation ratings usually were the equivalent of the non-aviation version with the addition of wings. Electronics techs had a helium atom, avaition electronics techs had a winged helium atom. The hospital corpsman symbol was a caduceus.

Boatswain's Mate: Deck Ape. Also a generic term to indicate someone not a snipe, a seabee or an Airedale (q.v.)

General term for ratings that worked on the machinery of the ship: Snipe. This included the classic snipe ratings; Machinist's Mate, Engineman, etc. and also Electrican's Mate.

Electronics Technician: Super Snipe. It was originally a snipe rating before it became a deck ape rating.

Aviation anything: Airedale. Also Brown Shoe (no rational reason for this one)

Constructionman: Seabee. These were the guys that left notes behind on the beaches after they prepped them for the Marine landing forces in the Pacific in WWII.


#25376 04/10/01 02:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
In reply to:

"Hoggin" - short for hogwash, i.e. the sea


Around here, "hogwash" means "nonsense." I wonder if there is a relationship to the nautical hogwash, and how?


Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
R
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
R
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Thanks for that lot, Faldage - adds credence to the belief that all naval types are linguistically inventive.

As to "Brown shoes" - in the UK, the first military aviators were army officers, with khaki uniform and brown shoes. I believe it was the same in the USA (you still call it the Army Air Force, I believe?) Did the USAAF fly from naval ships for a while, before the Naval air forces were formed? This would account a term for the strangely uniformed fellows mixed in with the blue-uniformed navy people.

Just a hypothesis - anyone know the truth?


Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
(you still call it the Army Air Force, I believe?)

Not since end of The Late Great Misunderstanding when Air Force was established as a separate branch of the Armed Forces.
It is now : United States Air Force (USAF)

In WWII Army Air Force Officers sometimes went overseas aboard troop ships.

The only time I know for sure that the Army Air Force flew off US warship was from the "Hornet" which was the "base" for the famous raid on Japan led by General Jimmy Doolittle.

As for shoes, navy officers, in peacetime, used to wear white shoes with the white uniforms used in warm climes and as they came down ladders the shoes were a tip off to crew that an officer was descending on them (and the illegal craps game!)
wow


Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
When the UK warships were making regular good will visits to Portsmouth New Hampshire in the mid-1980s we all learned a new word. British seamen serving aboard all answered to the name "Taff."
Anyone know anything about that nickname?
wow


Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Rhuby Responds: As to "Brown shoes" - in the UK, the first military aviators were army officers, with khaki uniform and brown shoes. I believe it was the same in the USA ... Did the USAAF fly from naval ships for a while, before the Naval air forces were formed? This would account a term for the strangely uniformed fellows mixed in with the blue-uniformed navy people.

Shoe color varied depending on the uniform worn. Petty officers and below invariably wore black shoes, regardless of rating. Chief petty officers wore brown or black depending on the uniform. There was a blue uniform and a khaki uniform. Officers had dress whites which took white shoes but they also had the blue and khaki uniforms which took black and brown shoes respectively. Your suggestion that the name may derive from WWII Army Air Force personnel sounds as good as anything else I have heard, but I couldn't confirm or deny the existence of Army fliers on Naval ships.


Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
TAFF as nautical nickname for UK sailors

I haven't heard Taff as a general nickname in that way, but my exposure to UK navy is slight, despite living in Portsmouth (UK). (As an aside the phrase "Pompey Defence" refers to someone, when charged with assault, claiming that the injured party had made an improper suggestion "Hullo, Sailor", etc. The phrase nowadays also refers to the non-existant back row in the local soccer team).
Taff or Taffy is a general nickname for Welshmen, after the River Taff and surrounding area. Maybe there were just a lot of Welshmen on those particular ships.
But I would like to know if Taff has wider usage, indicating a rank or whatever.
Rod


#25382 04/11/01 01:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
R
member
Offline
member
R
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
Speaking of lines - we discussed sheets, etc. - there are actually quite a few different types of lines.

sheets - line used to haul sails
shrouds - main lines used in the rigging
_________________________________________________

Sorry Hyla, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the subject of shrouds. Shrouds are static rigging - ie, they are used to hold the mast up and to induce certain bend characteristics into the mast to achieve the otpimum sail shape and gust response for the conditions. Because of this, they cannot be likened to sheets or halyards, which are running rigging.

Some other more 'slang-like' nautical terms would be:
'Honking Billy' - when the wind is absolutely howling
'Like being in a washing machine' - when you've got really nasty confused chop that is impossible to read and is bashing you around the place
'Going up the beat like a ferret up a drainpipe' - a particularly fine piece of nautical terminology coined by the ex-UK olympic coach - basically meaning that you were going up the beat extremely fast!
'tea-bagging' - a particularly unpleasant experience for any trapeze crew, involving your helm deciding to dunk you in the water for no apparent reason.
'cow-boying' - pushing your luck on the race course.
'doing a horizon job' - winning by a vast distance




#25383 04/11/01 03:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
R
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
R
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Very strong winds have recently been described in the RN as, "blowing a hooligan." I have also heard this term from non-naval sources, as well.


Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Taff or Taffy is a general nickname for Welshmen, after the River Taff and surrounding area. Maybe there were just a lot of Welshmen on those particular ships.

That may have been true of the "Minerva" as HRH Charles, the Prince of Wales was aboard. However we are talking about five or six ships which visited Portsmouth NH, (USA) and all used the "Taff" appelation.
When I visited the Medway area in UK I heard the term used frequently in relation to seamen in the Royal Navy.
wow


Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
Taff as general nickname for UK sailors, all or some

I believe you Ann, and am trying to track the reason, but no luck so far. However while searching I did find "Sharky - Navy nickname for all Wards". Since I have just been invested with a new shiny crown on a tooth this may be appropriate.

Update: Please will some of you good people reassure me that you also have, or know people who have, or at least have heard of other people who have, D'oh moments like I just had. It wasn't till I was just going to sleep hours after making the original post that I remembered my aunt on my Father's side, so her maiden name (until she married aged 63!) was also Ward. She was in the Womens Royal Naval Service=Wrens in WWII, and from 15 to 5 years ago had a dog called Sharky. I just thought it was any old canine name until now, but now presume it was from the naval nickname. I will ask her next time I see her (and also ask her about Taff). Unfortunately she suffers from a peculiar set of memory problems now, so it may take some delicate probing.
And I have some other contacts I will ask about Taff as well.
Sharky


#25386 04/11/01 05:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
shrouds - main lines used in the rigging
_________________________________________________

Sorry Hyla, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the subject of shrouds. Shrouds are static rigging - ie, they are used to hold the mast up and to induce certain bend characteristics into the mast to achieve the otpimum sail shape and gust response
for the conditions.


I think we're saying the same thing - that the shrouds are the heavier, vertical lines used as the backbone of the rigging, and thus are not hauled on, as sheets are. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I should also make clear that my knowledge of such things comes from extensive reading of historical fiction about the age of sail, rather than any affinity for and experience with the act of sailing itself. So I'm at least one step removed from what really happens with all them pieces of rope.

Brings to mind the character in the movie Metropolitan, who consistently critiques Jane Austen, and when asked if he had ever read her, says he doesn't need to - he reads literary criticism.


#25387 04/11/01 05:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Speaking of lines - we discussed sheets, etc

"Hello, sailor," often works for...well it often works!!


#25388 04/11/01 05:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
when asked if he had ever read her, says he doesn't need to - he reads literary criticism.

A bunch of years ago now, an article appeared--I don't remember where--that referred to the kind of literary talk that culls all its information from book reviews "bull crit."


#25389 04/11/01 06:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
IP wrote : "Hello, sailor," often works for...well it often works!!
----------------------------------------------------------
Really gave my son (Major, Army Reserves) a "start" when I walked up to him, unnoticed, at a restaurant lounge and standing slightly behind him, whispered in my sexiest voice, "Hi, Soldier, buy a Lady a drink?"
He bought me the drink AND paid my dinner check, too! So it apears it will work.
Anyone done any "research" on this concerning those serving in any other nation's Armed Forces?
{chuckling madly}
wow



#25390 04/11/01 06:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
IP wrote : "Hello, sailor," often works for...well it often works!!
----------------------------------------------------------
Really gave my son (Major, Army Reserves) a "start" when I walked up to him, unnoticed, at a restaurant lounge and standing slightly behind him, whispered in my sexiest voice, "Hi, Soldier, buy a Lady a drink?"
He bought me the drink AND paid my dinner check, too! So it apears it will work.
Anyone done any "research" on this concerning those serving in any other nation's Armed Forces?
{cackling madly}
wow
Anyplace else use "start" to mean a surprise, overlaid with a momentary shock while a thousand reasons/responses run through your mind?


#25391 04/11/01 07:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Start--as in a short hand of startled-- sure I know that-- and use start the same way.

I used to work for a consulting company, with had a major Dutch bank as an account. My son worked for an other computer service company, and had the same Dutch bank as a client.
One day, one of the Exec. VP at the bank, hosted a party, and invited the consultants.. I found my self sitting at the bar, and looked about-- 20 feet away in a booth, was my son. I walked over, gave him a kiss, and introduced my self to the others in the booth-- ("Hi I'm Benjamin's mom" )-- none believed me, and my son gave me a pained look-- Benjamin bought me a drink, and i returned to sitting with my own work mates-- who thought it hillarious that we were both at the same party.


#25392 04/11/01 07:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
A phrase with which our military friends who served in Viet Nam (and, possibly, Korea) should be familiar is now used by a certain bridge partner and myself. When partner or I put down an especially fortunate dummy hand (given the bidding and the declarer's own hand), we are known to tell the other, "Love you long time."


#25393 04/11/01 10:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
Bringing together the "start" discussion and nautical terms - in the age of sail, the bosun and his mates would use rattan canes or knotted ropes to "start" hands that were slow to move when orders were given - giving them a good whack to get them going.

Ah, the good old days of management.


#25394 04/11/01 11:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Dear tsuwm: can you tell us which one of these opinions is correct?
"One word that is said to have arisen from travelling by sea is `posh'. I read in a book, on British rule in India, that it is an abbreviation for `portside outward starboard homeword' to signify the best rooms in the ship to avoid the heat while travelling from Europe to Asia and back. However, the M-W Online Dictionary says that the etymology is unknown, and the word appeared in 1918."




This is from Mike & Melanie, at the Burnside site:
"Believe it or not, we have been waiting years for someone to ask this question as pal is one of the very few English words which derives from Romany (posh is another)."


#25395 04/12/01 01:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Dear tsuwm: can you tell us which one of these opinions is correct?
He did. The thread can be read at:
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=1717. Q&A, thread title Often, posted June 2, 00.

========================================================
tsuwm
(enthusiast)
Wed Jun 14 23:29:57 2000
Re: posh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

elegant, fashionable, fancy (slangy)

there is an interesting story behind the origin of posh-- http://quinion.com/words/qa/qa-pos1.htm
===========================================================
Well-I could not get this link to work,
but this one should:
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-pos1.htm
==================================================

Re: sailors called taffs--this is reminding me of my
barrow-boy guess, but could it be because of the association with salt-water taffy?



#25396 04/12/01 01:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
First some terms:

Sea-legs: the wobbly state of one's legs after disembarking from time spent on the water (in boat or ship). Which, of course, leads to "just getting his sea-legs" referring to a virgin voyage or a novice sailor. And, then, to
"come on and get your sea-legs," an idiom akin to "breaking the ice" or "taking the plunge"... encouraging someone to do something for the first time.

Tack: to change the direction of a sailing ship by turning the bow to the wind and shifting the sails; the direction of a ship in relation to the trim of its sails. Also the rope that holds in place the lower corner of a course on a sailing ship; and the corner of the sail to which a tack is fastened. (And a myriad of other variations of meaning for nautical action and hardware (on a sailing ship)..Hence the word "tacky"?

Nautical slang: My father served in the Navy in the South Pacific in WWII (Navy Corspman), and I've heard him, countless times, use the terms "swab," "swabs," or "swabbies" in referring to sailors (the low-ranking midshipmen, I presume). After "swabbing the deck"...mopping the deck.

And, since the term at the end of this sentence hasn't appeared, it proves you're all just a bunch of LANDLUBBERS!

Well, that's all I have to add to the list at this point, except for "list"...as in "listing," taking on water in the process of sinking.





#25397 04/12/01 01:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
yeah, it's one of those urban legend sort of stories that just won't go away, because it makes such a good story. actually®, it appeared quite a bit before 1918, as you will see from the OED citations. I think that the notion that it may have just evolved from earlier heteronyms has much merit.

Of obscure origin, but cf. posh n.2 The suggestion that this word is derived from the initials of ‘port outward, starboard home’, referring to the more expensive side for accommodation on ships formerly travelling between England and India, is often put forward but lacks foundation. The main objections to this derivation are listed by G. Chowdharay-Best in Mariner's Mirror (1971) Jan. 91–2. [having, I assume, primarily to do with the dates]

[1903 Wodehouse Tales of St. Austin's 37 That waistcoat+being quite the most push thing of the sort in Cambridge.] 1918 Punch 25 Sept. 204 Oh, yes, Mater, we had a posh time of it down there. 1923 Wodehouse Inimitable Jeeves vii. 72 Practically every posh family in the country has called him in at one time or another.

posh.n.2 - [App. thieves' slang (cf. Romany posh half).]
1. slang. Money; spec. a halfpenny; a coin of small value.
2. slang. A dandy. Perh. a different word.
1890 Barrère & Leland Dict. Slang II. 146/2 Posh,+a dandy. [1892 G. & W. Grossmith Diary of Nobody 197 Frank+said+he had a friend waiting outside for him, named Murray Posh, adding he was quite a swell.]




#25398 04/12/01 02:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Hyla wrote: >In the age of sail, at least in Europe, it was generally considered bad luck to have a woman on board ship.<

That's why the two notorious woman pirates, Mary Read and Anne Bonny, had to live disguised as men! Only their captain, Captain Calico Jack Rackham (and in Mary Read's case her pirate husband) knew the truth. (Anne was the Captain's mistress). And it was Anne Bonney who taunted Captain Jack at his hangin' with: "If you'd've come up and fought like a MAN, you wouldn't have to be hanged like a DOG!" Nice ladies.

Course, Grace O'Malley, the feared and fierce Irish pirate of the 16th century, captained her own ship...so she could dress any way she damn well wanted!


#25399 04/12/01 03:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
S
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
S
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
To WOW/Rodward (drifting leewardly?)
In reply to:

Taff as nautical nickname for UK sailors
Taff or Taffy is a general nickname for Welshman, after the River Taff


Let's start w/ some additional info (facts?) and then segue quickly to some speculative faux- folk etymology seeking to link Ancient St. David, (7th Cent) the patron saint of Wales, to some latter day Welsh Mariners. First, some "facts" from my paper (no "goo-gooing around) copy of The Facts On File Dictionary Of First Names, quoting randomly from the entry "David"( which, not co-incidentally, happens to be my own "first" name.)
"Saint David (7th c.) became the patron saint of Wales and caused the name to be intensively used there at all times thereafter. ....Pet forms include Welsh Taffy, Dai, Davy". For "Taffy", cf. "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief," etc.(and maybe a sailor as well?) And now for our faux-etymology. It seems a logical line from >St David > ST Davy >St Davy's Day> (and note, e.g. S's humourous treatment of Welsh accents w/ Fluellen in HenV -"P"s for "B"s and other mistaken initial consonants >Sint Davvy's Day and then an elided "D' replaced by the final "t" of Saint to arrive at "St Tavvy" and finally, but easily, logically, "Taffy". Query, which came first, "River Taff" or "Taffy" from the ancient, good St David. Who knows or cares, but that's why we have these discussions - a few facts twisted about w/ a bit of speculation seeking to answer some unanswerable Qs. We personify our breeds of warriors. ("Johnny" marching home from WWI and "GI Joe" in a foxhole in WWII. Perhaps a large number of Welsh sailors became, generically, "Taffies" during those centuries when (as even now?) Brittania ruled the waves. Now,( carefully replacing my paper volume to its familiar place) I shall leave it to the on-line researchers to verify or discredit my daffy etymology. ..... This is an "Edited Post" after-thought (or, as I call it, a Post-Scribble) I just remembered (about five minutes after posting the foregoing) that Shakespeare, in Hen V, has Fluellen say, somewhere, "f"alorous" meaning "v"alorous" "f" substituted for "v" as in "Davvy" becoming "Daffy" and the "t" of Saint sliding over the "D' of Davvy to become "Taffy". I don't know about you, but I have just convinced myself. .......



#25400 04/12/01 07:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
R
member
Offline
member
R
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
Very strong winds have recently been described in the RN as, "blowing a hooligan." I have also heard this term from non-naval sources, as well.
___________________________________________

Also:
blowing a hoolie
howling
honking
blowing old boots
the list could go on!


#25401 04/12/01 08:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
Re: sailors called taffs--this is reminding me of my
barrow-boy guess, but could it be because of the association with salt-water taffy?


And on such delightful ideas are erudite etymologies founded. But I have never heard toffee called taffy in UK. Any other east siders care to comment?

And on "start". The knotted rope was called a "starter".

Rod


#25402 04/12/01 08:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
for "list"...as in "listing," taking on water in the process of sinking

I know "list" as "lean, lean over" which might or might not involve taking on water. Can anyone confirm Whitman's more specific meaning?

Rod


#25403 04/12/01 10:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
But I have never heard toffee called taffy in UK.

Ah--I had assumed (yet again--sigh) that the nickname Taff
had been assigned to the Brits by the U.S.'ns, but
having just re-read the originating post, I see that it ain't necessarily so. [berating self again e]


#25404 04/12/01 01:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
There is an old nursery rhyme:"Taffy was a Welchman....."


Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Sea legs first: My take on this was always that sea legs referred more to the ability to walk steadily while on a rolling ship than on the inability to walk on steady land. My own experience in this matter was as follows:

My first time on the ship, a large and somewhat top heavy cruiser which rolled quite a bit in relatively calm seas, I had no problems walking steadily. When I first hit dry land after that first voyage I was a little wobbly. Subsequent transitions were totally uneventful.

I, too, had never heard that taking on water was necessary for listing. Sufficient, yes, necessary, no. Unbalanced cargo could cause the same condition.


#25406 04/12/01 02:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Yes, rodward, the literal meaning of "list" is "to lean to one side"...but I have only heard it used in nautical terms when referring to a sinking ship...listing to starboard, listing heavily at the bow, she took on water slowly causing a heavy list to port before she rolled over and went down, etc.

And, how 'bout MATE, MATES, and MATEY!?...How did our voices from Down Under miss this one?


#25407 04/12/01 02:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
rkay wrote: >"Very strong winds have been described in the RN as "blowing a hooligan."<

Living here on the coast we, and commercial fisherman and seaman, always refer to an approaching gale or
nor'easter by saying "looks like we're in for a big blow", or, " it looks like there's a big blow comin' up." Or simply,
"There's a blow comin' up."

There has also been some bantering in the local press of late as to whether the time-honored nautical slang, "nor'easter" should be scuttled in deference to the more proper "northeaster." I vote the former.

And a "nor'easter" is also the name for the special foul- weather gear a commercial fisherman or seaman wears on the Mid-Atlantic and New England coasts of the US.


#25408 04/12/01 02:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
"nor'easter" is also the name for the special foul- weather gear
and on the the other side of the pond this is known as a "sou'wester". At least that is certainly a foul weather hat (like Paddington Bear wears - I had one as a child) and I think refers also to the rest of the gear. I wouldn't know if the gears are similar. Presumably if a sou'wester buttons down the front, a nor'easter buttons down the back?
Rod


#25409 04/12/01 05:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Faldage Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
"nor'easter" is also the name for the special foul- weather gear
and on the the other side of the pond this is known as a "sou'wester".


US'ns call the storm a nor'easter because the winds (not the storm) come out of the northeast. This is because the storms track up the coast and we, being on the western edge, get the first winds from the notheast.

Do the UK'ns call the storm as well as the storm gear a sou'wester? And if so, is it because you are on the eastern edge of the storm?


#25410 04/12/01 06:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Not nautical, but many oldtimers in New England believed the northeast winds caused their arthritis symptoms to be made more troublesome. One mildly odd character would not get out of bed if his weather vane indicated wind from northeast. So a boy tied a fine thread to his weathervane to keep it pointing to the northeast. The victim stayed in bed for over a week, allegedly.


#25411 04/12/01 07:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Yes, rodward, the literal meaning of "list" is "to lean to one side"...but I have only heard it used in nautical terms when referring to a sinking ship

I once read a maritime adventure based on a fact that spoke of a vessel being towed some hundreds of miles to Halifax while listing 30 or 60 degrees. It's not my impression that "to list" refers to the ship going down at all, even though listing heavily would probably lead to it.



#25412 04/12/01 09:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
rodward wrote in reference to "nor'easter": >At least that is certainly a foul-weather hat."


The term may pertain exclusively to the hat or head-gear seaman don for stormy weather...I seem to remember a picture describing "an old salt..there's another one, "OLD SALT!"...wearing his nor'easter" as a head shot.

And it's interesting that it's called a "sou'wester" on the other side of the pond!


#25413 04/12/01 09:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
And, how 'bout MATE, MATES, and MATEY!?...How did our voices from Down Under miss this one

Good question. "Matey" is not much used here, but thee was a TV ad, (from OZ, I think) shown here in which "mate" was almost the only word spoken.


#25414 04/12/01 09:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
inselpeter wrote: >It's not my impression that "to list" refers to the ship going down at all, even though listing heavily would probably lead to it.<

Are we getting bogged down in the semantics of image here? If a ship is taking on water causing it "to lean" or "to list" it is then "in the process of sinking"...no, it doesn't actually have to sink all the way...but it has sunken to a degree. How else to convey the word "list" in the context of the image? If a boat is "listing" at the bow, it is then sinking at the bow...is it not? Is a boat ever listing because it is not-sinking? Can anybody else help "bail me out"?...There we go!...If a boat is taking on water you bail it out because it is sinking...if you bail fast enough it won't actually sink...but while you are bailing the boat it certainly is in the process of sinking. And suddenly I'm thinking of R.D. Laing's "Knots"! I'll swim off toward my life-raft now...


Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Faldage wrote about "listing": >Unbalanced cargo could cause the same condition.<

True. A shift in cargo or other factors could cause a vessel to list. Many of the clammers (clam boats) in this area have that problem because of the regulations...they are only allowed to go out at certain times and tend to overload...so many of them go down when the clam-cargo shifts in the hold (not to say that a boat HAS to go down when the cargo shifts, guys!) But, actually, I've lost a few friends that way. I just thought the image of a foundering or sinking ship was the classic example of the word list or listing. I see, now, that literalism is part of the fun of the wordplay here...I'll make a note of that.

And all this semantical dissection of "listing" brought this to mind, so here it is:

Can a submarine sink if it's already submerged? Or at the bottom? Do we need a new word? Or do we need to say "losing air," "lost air," or "lost all air" instead?


#25416 04/13/01 04:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Re: Whitman'o's insisting, listing takes on water
***
No! A ship will list if her ballast shifts and still keep all her scuppernongs dry if unlikely. But look, we're pushing a dead bull up a hill with a rope and a blue ball, or is that what ~presidents are not elected to do?

On a lighter note (?), tonight is one of those nights you'd drown in here in summer--not yet pea soup, but a fine, rolling mist, which brings me to brass tacks. Is "pea soup" a nautical turn--I learned it on a gaf rigger off the Massachusetts shore and also to call "suds" the Balatine Ale that might as well have been. Nonce nauticals, or nauticals in blood and salt? We were still well south of rough water and the Reef of Norman's Woe. If I'd a story to tell surpassing one line, I'd draw a yarn of it like pulling taffy and keep it to myself so all them could wonder that wouldn't.



Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Can a submarine sink if it's already submerged? Or at the bottom? Do we need a new word? Or do we need to say "losing air," "lost air," or "lost all air" instead?

(First of all, precision and "literal" are not the same, [hurumph emoticon] )

But to the point: my guess, which is subject to amendment, would be that as long she's buoyant, she's afloat; that is, there's no substantial difference between a vessel on the surface or one below so long as each is buoyant. Do you say a ship is sunk when you can't see the red of her keel? If she's resting on the bottom, she can't go down, so she can't sink. She floods or is crushed. In my mind the question is, what's the status of a submarine resting on the ocean floor? Or not what by why.



#25418 04/13/01 06:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Oh, I get it, inselpeter...this is your little frat hazing for me, right?


#25419 04/13/01 10:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Oh, I get it, inselpeter...this is your little frat hazing for me, right?

W'O: I tell you honestly it wasn't, even though I'm not sure which post you're refering to. First, middle, and last, as far as I'm concerned, you're very welcome here. Hazing? Never was much of a sorority boy.


#25420 04/13/01 10:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
I have to agree on "listing". It is not uncommon to see the ferries that ply Cook Strait listing by 10 to 20 degrees in strong gales, yet they are definitely not sinking. Even the planes coming into Wellington airport are often "listing", for want of a better word. Not for nothing is our capital called windy Wellington.


#25421 04/13/01 11:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Oh, I get it, inselpeter...this is your little frat hazing for me, right?

Sure he was, Whit.! Don't let him fool you--by the way, insel., what's a gaf rigger, please?

I think, Whitman, that when a submarine has gone to the bottom in an out-of-control way, we say she's down.


Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
OK, about "listing" applied to ships. In WWII the Queen Elisabeth was made into a troop ship and during one trip from USA to UK, carrying US troops, she was caught in bad weather and listed -- as I recall -- five degrees MORE than the specs said she could without turning turtle then righted.
I tried the Net for info on the incident but gave up after an hour. Arrgghhh!
I even went through all my notes re WWII incidents and couldn't find it. Double Arrrggghhh!
The upshot being that a ship can indeed list way over and not sink.
If anyone has a link I'd be most grateful.
wow


#25423 04/13/01 06:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Even the planes coming into Wellington airport are often "listing", for want of a better word.

I think that is called "crabbing" when in relation to flying a plane ... may have been swiped from nautical term ... catching a crab?
wow


#25424 04/14/01 02:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
I think this list is listing under the weight of confusion! (And, NO!...that doesn't mean it's sinking, either!...there's no water in sight! )


#25425 04/14/01 03:15 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
I think that is called "crabbing" when in relation to flying a plane

Thank you, wow. That is another example of not even knowing there was a specific word for something, and discovering it here. There is a caveat, however, illustrated by the following online dictionary definitions

The maneuvering of an aircraft partially into a crosswind to compensate for drift.

1 : to cause to move sideways or in an indirect or diagonal manner; specifically : to head (an airplane) into a crosswind to counteract drift


The definition suggests the action of the pilot - he crabs the plane. The planes that are "listing" on their way into Wellington airport are being violently tilted by the actions of the wind, and the pilot cannot manouevre into the crosswind, as that would have the plane at right angles to the runway.



#25426 04/14/01 01:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
There is a caveat, however

Oh, well! It was worth a shot!
wow


#25427 04/14/01 04:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
"painter" can be line to tie small boat to a ship,as for towing. Sometimes may refer to the small boat.

5LME paynter < OFr pentour, ult. < L pendere, to hang: see PEND6 a rope attached to the bow of a boat for tying it as to a dock or for towing it

scull 7skul8
n.
5ME skulle, prob. < Scand form akin to obs. Swed skolle, thin plate < IE base *(s)kel3, to cut > HELM26
1 an oar mounted at the stern of a boat and worked from side to side to move the boat forward
2 either of a pair of light oars used, one on each side of a boat, by a single rower
3 a light, narrow racing boat for one, two, or four rowers
vt., vi.
to propel with a scull or sculls
scull$er
n.
Do you know the origin of the phrase by and large? Thanks. Your site is wonderful!(Melanie&Mike in Burnside)

By and large, I can tell you! Today the phrase means "for the most part," but it was originally a nautical term meaning "sail the ship as close as she can go to the wind without being hard on it." This makes the ship easier to steer. This meaning of "close but not completely" came to be applied to situations in general.


#25428 04/16/01 02:21 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Tom Waits has a wonderful tune called "Shiver Me Timbers":

And nobody knows me
I can't fathom my stayin'
Shiver me timbers
I'm a-sailin' away


i remember Popeye saying this phrase, along with Blow Me Down. i take "blow me down" to be akin to "you could knock me down with a feather", but whence comes "shiver me timbers"??



#25429 04/16/01 07:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460
P
addict
Offline
addict
P
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460
It's always linked in my mind with Long John Silver from R L Stevenson's "Treasure Island".

Brewer says: An imprecation used by 'stage-sailors' and popular with children's story writers. Presumably of nautical origin, 'shiver' here is used in the sense of 'to shatter' or 'splinter into pieces', the timbers being those of the ship.


#25430 04/17/01 09:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 609
re crabbing: refers to plane moving sideways (under control). I seem to remember boats or at least sailing dinghies crab (or are crabbed) as well. The aerial equivalent of "listing" is presumably "banking" though again that might suppose a controlled manoeuvre rather than the plane being banked by the action of the winds, etc.
Rod


#25431 04/28/01 04:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
" ALOOF! An old expression meaning 'Keep your luff', or sail as close to the wind as possible. Sometimes, in old books of voyages, written as 'ALUFFE'. The expression was most often used when a ship was sailing along a lee shore, the order to 'keep aloof' meaning to keep the ship's head nearer to the wing to prevent her being driven closer to the shore. "

I never saw this before, and can't imagine how it acquired its usual meaning.Incidentally, the "wing" in last sentence of definition must be a typo for "wind".


#25432 04/28/01 05:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
a rope attached to the bow of a boat for tying it as to a dock

There is a lovely harbor at Rye, NH, with a many-windowed restaurant on the shore.(Sanders, if your near there) and it is a source of amusement to those sea-wise among us to see newcomers tie their small painter up to a stanchion and debark for lunch and a few drinks ... while the tide goes out ... and return to find their boat high and dry, hanging alongside the stanchion and not a prayer of going anywhere until the tide comes in again.... about 8 to 12 hours before it's high enough to float your boat!
The moral is : leave plenty of rope between your boat and the tie-up so you don't end up High and Dry!


#25433 04/28/01 10:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
newcomers tie their small painter up to a stanchion and debark for lunch and a few drinks ... while the tide goes out ... and return to find their boat high and dry, hanging alongside the stanchion and not a prayer of going anywhere until the tide comes in again.

If they're tying their clove hitches as tight as this, the reverse must happen as well no? A nice tight knot, so the little craft'll no' be lost when tha' great taid comes in - and when it does, that selfsame knot keeps the dinghy littly thing underwater. There's a particular knot recommended for such a situation, which'll slide up and down but not untie, but I can't recall what it is (I've a knot fixation, but it appears to have come unfixed at the moment). As you point out, however, cutting themselves some slack would do the trick as well.


#25434 04/29/01 12:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
H-man, was it a cleat wind knot? Whatever, here is the url for what came up on Google when I put in Knots. Warning: you may go crazy, with all of these. Some sites have movies of how to make them. There is also one where somebody has studied the mathematics of knots.
http://www.google.com/cobrand?q=knots&site=search&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&cof="AWPID:a011c5f80bcf6f44;"&start=0&sa=N


#25435 04/29/01 05:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Good one, Jackie. But it was missing one very important piece of information - how to untie the Gordian knot that all children seem to know, almost instinctively, how to tie!



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#25436 04/29/01 12:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Dear CK: Since it seems likely that the kids are going to tie Gordian knots only in their shoestrings, a careful scissors version of Alexander's solution is suggested, since shoestrings are inexpensive.

I have a shoestring knot problem. Remember in The Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck illustrates the mental limitations of the Okie girl, by telling that she could sit for hours wondering how the tail of "C" could get through the loop of the "L" on the Coca Cola logo. When I do my two mile b.i.d. hike around the block, I am really amazed at how many times an aglet of the lace goes through a loop, causing a hard knot if I am careless when I take my shoes off, causing great difficulty removing my shoe because my arthritis makes bending over difficult. Like the Okie girl, I can spend hours wondering how it can happen so often.




#25437 04/29/01 02:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
how to untie the Gordian knot

Shall we call the inclination of the Posts to go w-i-d-e suddenly the Gargian Unknot?
It was regular size yesterday when I posted my anecdote and today my post and some before and after have gone screen-and-a-half. ??????


#25438 04/29/01 08:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Shall we call the inclination of the Posts to go w-i-d-e suddenly the Gargian Unknot?

Perhaps the Gargian Unravel? I think that's more appropriate when a thread, rather than a string, comes undone!



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#25439 04/30/01 07:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
B
old hand
Offline
old hand
B
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
I don't know if these has been discussed; at least I didn't see it...
Whether 'port holes' are the small round windows in the hull, or holes along the deck's railing for tying up the ship seems to be the cause of a lot of debate. Does any one have a definitive answer?

Hyla, can you tie a Fisherman's Bend?

BTW, My favourite nautical term is the 'poop deck' (a small deck at the stern) from which the captain might yell 'Furl the sails and batten down the hatches, me matey!'


#25440 04/30/01 02:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
W
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Port holes according to my Mariner's Dictionary :
"openings in the ship's side for light, air or guns."
There you go!.


#25441 04/30/01 03:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
H
addict
Offline
addict
H
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
I believe the openings for guns are often called "gun ports," rather than port holes, but the basic idea of a port being an opening in the side still holds.

And yes, I can tie a fisherman's bend, a sheet bend, a slipped sheet bend and, if I really apply myself, a short-end sheet bend (useful in mending things like a broken shoelace, but I generally prefer Bill's method, recommended elsewhere, for dealing with that issue - but's it a nice euphonious name).


Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,912
Posts229,283
Members9,179
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV, Heather_Turey, Standy
9,179 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 444 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,510
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5