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#23623 - 03/22/01 06:23 AM Re: "Exploitation"
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Dear Helen

Since I agree with just about everything you say, this post would be redundant, if not for one contrary opinion I hold - regarding your on-topic comment! You said:

An other point--she is called "Maid Marion"--Not Mrs (madam, mistress)-- which implies she is not married or "troth" to Robin-- so her actions are hard to define as "unfaithful". Should/does Robin have the right to deside what Marion gets to do with her body--just because he is a man?
If one gets married-- and make a promise to be "faithful"-- and "foreswears all others"-- okay, then she is breaking a vow-- but is she is Maid Marion? (the story is unclear as to whether Marion and Robin are just a "couple" or if they are "husband & wife"-- )


1. I do not lay great store by formal marriage - a relationship, with mutual acceptance of responsibilities towards it, is a relationship whether or not it has been formally contracted to.

2. If we claim that Marion had the simple right to do what she wanted with her body - without regard to the feelings of her notional partner in the relationship - then surely Robin had the right to reject her without regard to her feelings too? My point has been (from the start of this extended discussion) that Marion's actions are not necessarily blameworthy in isolation, but in the context of a relationship with Robin she seems to have either:

a. ignored his feelings
b. been unable to predict them (which appears unlikely, since she was reluctant to tell him about what she had done).

To that extent, I feel that she is guilty - she took upon herself control of an issue that affected both of them, and while she had the absolute right to do so, she has no right, thereafter, to claim that the relationship should continue, or continue as before.

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#23624 - 03/22/01 07:41 AM Re: "Exploitation"
BlanchePatch Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/02/01
Posts: 76
Loc: New York City
I hope that the increasing acceptance of women in the professions and in many occupations formerly closed to them will keep more and more women from having to make such a horrible choice,

An interest sidelight to this -- last week I had dinner with a woman who, for ten years, had been a "hooker booker." She worked at a up-scale bordello, scheduling appointments. She said that the majority of the prostitutes were women who were quite intellegent and that many, in fact, were using their earnings to pay for higher education--I presume to enter occupations formerly closed to them. Ironic, eh?

I think of troys analysis is fascinating (being a member of Veblen's fan club). It is amazing how complex and deep the dynamics of this kind of interchange are.


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#23625 - 03/22/01 01:17 PM Re: "Exploitation"
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
To that extent, I feel that she is guilty - she took upon herself control of an issue that affected both of them, and while she had the absolute right to do so, she has no right, thereafter, to claim that the relationship should continue, or continue as before.

That's it! Thank you shanks, for doing such a fine job of expressing one of the main reasons I felt that Marion was not guiltless.


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#23626 - 03/22/01 01:49 PM Re: "Exploitation"
emanuela Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 315
Loc: Italy - Perugia is a town with...
I think that there is a difference between being wrong and being guilty.
Marion had to choose between two evil deeds, and made her choice.
Probably she was wrong in hoping that Robin could accept it, but for judging deeply her behaviour we should know her feelings and her intentions.
I want to say that the same deed can be guilty or not , depending on the intentions of the person who did it.

Anyway, I feel that the story has an happy end, since Robin was not worth being married - not since he left her, but since he abused and offended her.

Ciao
Emanuela



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#23627 - 03/22/01 09:02 PM Re: Phase II
Scribbler Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/21/01
Posts: 86
Loc: Utopia, not in literal sense, ...
"Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for those ideas and comments,"said Professor Scribbler, quietly arrogating to himself that worthiest of titles in order that he may ASK and not be required to ANSWER the Qs he proposes to propound. "I have, for your convenience, divided the class into groups based upon your previous answers, placing the Absolutists on my right and the group representing Situational Ethics on my left. In the middle of our Electronic Forum, I have placed, appropriately enough, those contemplating meditatively (or meditating contemplatively) together with the uncertain and the confused. Now we are ready to proceed to the Next Level. Would your answers still be the same," he asked, with the hint of a twinkle in his eyes, "if we changed the facts just a bit?" His eyes darted quickly to the Absolutist quarter, then back just as quickly to the neutral middle. "Let's start with just two changes."

#1. Same facts EXCEPT THAT, instead of "merely" languishing in the relative comfort of a dreary dungeon, Robin and LJ are to be hanged at dawn, day after tomorrow, UNLESS, of course, MM acquiesces to the 13th Century plea bargaing offer, as aforesaid, in which instance, the High Shire Reeve of Nottingham would, on his word of honor as a Christian (Pardon me, Mr. Shanks) gentleman, arrange a jail break to freedom, success guaranteed. All right, Class, same answers as before? Discuss?

Now for #2 - Same set of facts as in #1, supra, EXCEPT THAT, The Shire Reeve has, in aid of his nefarious scheme, advised Robin of his "offer" to MM and permitted Robin to send a note to MM, pleading for her "cooperation" in order that his (Robin's and their friend's (LJ's) lives might be spared. MM receives the note. There is no mistaking Robin's hand (such as it is). She knows it well. The reply comes back from MM. "Robin, my dearest, I could not love thee, dear, so much, loved not I honor more." (Anticipating, by some... but that is another class) "Sorry, Robin, my Eternal Love. I shall get me to a nunnery and we shall meet, someday, in Heaven!). In the great tradition of Hollywood, Will Scarlet and the Merry Men mount a valiant effort to free the prisoners, but, alas, Hollywood having,for once, surrendered to Reality, the effort fails and the terrible sentence is (in Hollywood's exquisite detail) carried out, with Will Scarlet and a few more merry Men hanged for good measure. (Rated R for cruelty and violence, as well as for the lurid sexual scenes between MM and the High SR. Parental Discretion advised. Tickets: Adults $8.50; Seniors, $6.50; Children 12 and under $5.00 - Children are not permitted to bring firearms into the theatre except w/ the written permission of a parent or guardian)

"Same answers, Class? Please don't forget to sign the Honor Pledge. Leave your bluebooks on my desk," says Professor Scribbler, preparing to leave the room.


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#23628 - 03/22/01 09:47 PM Re: Phase II
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
"Same answers, Class? Please don't forget to sign the Honor Pledge. Leave your bluebooks on my desk,"

Huh? This left-leaning moral absolutist is now utterly confused. You describe the situation as "changed just a bit." To me, the additions change the scenario entirely. Robin's giving his blessing to Marion means that no betrayal of a personal trust is involved, and Marion's refusal to comply with the Sheriff appears to be in harmony with her internal moral code, as opposed to the initial scenario, where she appeared to breach her own ethics. In this scenario, I would score Marion first for sticking to her own values, Robin lagging behind for asking her to compromise those values for his sake, and LJ neutral. "the lurid sexual scenes between MM and the High SR" had me confused, I thought she declined the Sheriff's proposal - are we talking about rape here?


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#23629 - 03/22/01 10:00 PM Re: Phase II
Scribbler Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/21/01
Posts: 86
Loc: Utopia, not in literal sense, ...
(Before you ask, here is an) Explanatory Note from Scribbler re:" Lurid sexual scenes between MM and the High SR." I thought MM REFUSED the offer!. Answer: #1. Of course she did, but since when has Hollywood stuck to "the facts" the "book" or whatever, especially if there is an opportunity to present sexual .... #2. Perhaps it was a dream sequence, the SR imagining the success of his scheme, etc, or #3. Perhaps Scribbler erred in the original Post and has invented these rather lame "explanations" in self-defense to a Board w/ sharp eyes for errors. Choose any one or more.


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#23630 - 03/22/01 11:08 PM Re: Phase II
Scribbler Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/21/01
Posts: 86
Loc: Utopia, not in literal sense, ...
To Max -- re "Lurid sexual scenes" As I privately acknowledged to you, you caught me- almost instantly- before I could correct my own error. but see my Explanatory Note. That (as they say) is my story and I'm sticking to it.
re "Changed it a little bit" Of course it is CHANGED. CHANGED A LOT- That is why it is called Phase II. It seemed to me that 1) we had flogged the poor horsey enough on the original issues, but that 2) the Board, judging by the number, length, and rapidity of the posts, was quite interested in the subject matter. "A" solution (not necessarily "the" solution is to change the facts ("a bit' or "a lot") and see, what,if any, difference it makes. To Abolutists, it might ... Or to those who hold by "situational ethics' or to others... What say we see what, if anything, any of those have to say. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing to prohibit (is there?) further discussion, ad libitum, on the original set of facts? If I have given the Thread an untimely twist, someone please straighten it out.


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#23631 - 03/22/01 11:35 PM Re: Phase II
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
Bring it on, urges Max in a post that serves no purpose except to bring him closer to veteran .


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#23632 - 03/23/01 09:49 AM Re: Phase II
Sparteye Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 1773
[Sparteye, having read of the slight change in facts, experiences a flashback to her law school days of some twenty-odd years ago. Throwing her hand across her brow, she cries, "Beat me, whip me, teach me law!" and swoons, reviving only just enough to whisper, "where did Blackacre go?" before fainting dead away.

Bow to wow emoticon.]


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