|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163 |
While strolling through the dictionary the other day I happened upon the word portcullis. This word comes (c. 1200) from old French porte (door) + coleice (sliding)- now coulisser. Well, firing up my Larousse I looked for the translation of portcullis and found that it is la herse.
Another example, double entendre. Probably came from double entente, but again, is not used in modern French.
The problem when you learn more than one language is that you can waste an otherwise productive two quiet hours of children sleeping pursuing a line of inquiry that would require a stretch to reach the weight of trivia.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Rous resurrects a topic that I, for one, find very interesting. Here's an example that immediately springs to mind, going from English to Portuguese: outdoor in Brazil means billboard .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Rouspeteur: Very interesting. Was there any etymology given for the new word "la herse"?
I looked up "hearse" and was surprised to find this:
"hearse"
n.
ME herce < OFr, a harrow, grated portcullis < L hirpex, a large rake with iron teeth < dial (Sabine) irpus, wolf (hence, lit., wolf-tooth device)
It sounds as though the two words had co-existed in French, and then portcullis became obsolete.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
How did hearse (herse) in Enlish, go from a portcullis to a canopy over a bier or coffin to a hearse/car that transports the coffin and body to it's grave ?
Did portcullis, the thing not the word, eventually become a port cochere. Both are at the front of the home/castle but the porte cochere provided shelter for people arriving by carriage or car while the portcullis is designed to permit entry to friends and bar enemies.
wow
Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice declination and derivation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
many early "Americanisms", ever reviled by the British, turned out to be British words which had gone obsolete between the time of early colonization and the time when the linguists started taking note of these sorts of things.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163
member
|
|
OP
member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163 |
It seems that the original meaning from the latin of a rake gradually transformed to a grate.
Interstingly enough, when I delved deeper I found the "herse" is also an English word but listed as obsolete. The agricultural meanings seemed to have migrated to the word harrow.
Herse...
A portcullis grated and spiked. Hist. 704 J. Harris Lex. Tech., Herse, in Fortification, is a Lattice in the form of a Harrow, and beset with many Iron Spikes. It is usually hung+that the herse may fall, and stop up the Passage+or other Entrance of a Fortress. 1841 Archćologia XXIX. 62 The+absence of the Herse is very unusual, and can only be explained, under the supposition that there was one at the porch of entrance, now fallen.
From Hearse one of the definitions:
b. A permanent framework of iron or other metal, fixed over a tomb to support rich coverings or palls, often adapted to carry lighted tapers.
1552 Berksh. Ch. Goods 10 A herse of Irone. 1846 Parker Gloss. Archit. 129 There is a brass frame+over the effigy of Richard, earl of Warwick, in the Beauchamp chapel at Warwick, which is called a herse in the contract for the tomb. 1851 Turner Dom. Archit. II. v. 242 The Sheriff of Southampton is commanded to repair the herces in the king's chapel. 1866 Peacock Eng. Ch. Furniture 128 A very graceful iron hearse of this kind+in Tanfield Church.
It seems the idea of the grate, or a grate-like apparatus is the common root.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 86 |
Owing to his graceful style, his clarity of expression, his commanding erudition and scholarship, and his screen-name (Rousepeteur - my Guess-et Ymology suggests one who stirs to action, excites and also one who seeks and searches), I nominate (recognizing that TSUWM is CiC) Rouspeteur for the position of Arch-Etymologist for the following reasons: 1. A cat may look at a king 2. I asked about rules and was advised there are none of which to speak, which suggests that one Stranger may nominate another. I DO recognize that there may be some minor matters to resolve first, i.e. a.Do we have a position of Arch-Etymologist( if not, why not? and b. If so, is it already filled? These are , of course, mere technicalities and details, and if it shouldn't work out, Mr. J, I would, in any event, like to join the others in welcoming you to the Board. I would be interested in the real (not a guess-et) etymology of "Rouspeteur" if you would undertake such a search and advise or otherwise explain. In the meantime, I very much admired "strolling through the dictionary" which strongly suggests to me one of the wonderful, old fahioned "books-on paper" variety which provide entertaining distractions, memorable"EUREKA" moments as well as the information for which one is looking. If you were looking in an on-line version, I'll understand (they have their uses) and I'll still vote for you for AE. Welcome aboard. Scribbler
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>I nominate Rouspeteur for the position of Arch-Etymologist
ah... youse are just floggin' this herse 'cuz hez got OED on CD-ROM.
-ron (snuffer) obvious
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163
member
|
|
OP
member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163 |
To Scribbler:
I do not have the origin of rouspéteur beyond the fact that I first heard it used in a "discussion" with my wife (depending on which language we argue in, er, have our discussion in, one of us is usually checking out a dictionary afterwards), but the definition is as follows:
rouspéteur, -euse fam (nm, f) [rouspéter is the verb, btw]
grumbler, moaner, groucher
il n'y a que les rouspéteurs qui obtiennent satisfaction you only get what you want if you complain
I would like to find a good French dictionary, comparable to the OED, but have yet to do so.
As to the strolling, it was digital strolling, but in the modern sense of the word. My selection of the digital OED was made for three reasons:
1. It was less than one quarter the price of the paper version.
2. My bookshelves are already overflowing so I couldn't fit another 24 volumes on them.
3. It is much easier to find words because you can search for words in the definitions, or even multiple words that occur within a certain number of words of each other. for example, "rabbit" followed no more than 10 words later by "fur".
Although I have several print dictionaries, the electronic ones are faster when I need the word quickly. At work, I must write things in both official languages and I don't usually have time to search for the translation in a book.
As to being the AE, I graciously accept the honour!
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,316
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
621
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
