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#22142 03/10/01 09:32 PM
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Faldage Offline OP
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From a workshop I was at earlier today: defined as a seemingly clever statement that makes a superficial, basically incorrect point. Example: Verdi's greatest opera was his Requiem.


#22143 03/11/01 04:06 PM
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I don't know much music, but perhaps the Requiem was an opus not an opera?


#22144 03/11/01 04:50 PM
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Faldage>From a workshop I was at...

A comment on Verdi at another time, but since, Faldage, you used the above in your post, I'll just mention that it is one of the truly aggravating mistakes often made by English speakers!

In Hebrew & Arabic (and probably other languages as well), one cannot make this mistake as the concept simply does NOT exist in that form. One MUST say (in translation) "from a workshop at which I was [in attendance]..." or "from a workshop I attended"...

I guess there is a *pet peeves* thread, but since it was used here, I felt compelled to answer it here! Sorry 'bout that! Now, I suppose you could say I am agita over that!

Shoshannah



suzanne pomeranz, tourism consultant jerusalem, israel - suztours@gmail.com
#22145 03/11/01 04:57 PM
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actually®, Sh, (as I understand the term) you have agita over that.


#22146 03/11/01 05:08 PM
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But nobody has said what the error was in calling the Requiem an opera. Was it part of an opera?


#22147 03/11/01 05:19 PM
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here's some commentary I found which may shed some light:

The requiem was embraced by a whole continent. The general opinion was in favor of the requiem. Many shared Brahms' opinion that -"only a genius could have written such a work". There were, however, those who were less enthusiastic.
Hans von bulow, the great conductor, called it:"An opera in ecclesiastical robes", and Wagner, having heard the requiem, is reported to have said, simply, - "it is better to say nothing.."
It is true that the requiem has something of the operatic in it. However, in good performances, the dramatic touch only strengthens the power of this composition.
The question of whether it is truly 'ecclesiastical' is more problematic.



#22148 03/11/01 05:41 PM
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Dies Irae! I won't steal Faldage's thunder (yes, there's a pun there ) by explaining his witicism , and while I can't think of another example of such (yet) I must address the grammar point brought up:

There is nothing incorrect in English in saying "I was at a workshop," or inverting it for that matter (and love anastrophes I do!). That a structure is inexistent in one language does not make it incorrect in another. Were we to use that logic, then the Spanish "No tengo nada" would be incorrect simply because double negatives are ungrammatical in English.


#22149 03/11/01 05:55 PM
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There is nothing incorrect in English in saying "I was at a workshop," or inverting it for that matter

Thank you, AnnaS. I had not thought that there was anything grammatically incorrect about "a workshop I was at", and it's reassuring to have my assumption validated.


#22150 03/11/01 07:09 PM
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Well - in MY grammar class a long long long time ago, dear Mrs. Kriminger taught us never to end a sentence, or a thought for that matter, with a preposition (in this case, the little 'at'). For instance, you certainly may say "I was at a workshop" but NEVER "A workshop I was at..."

Americans (and perhaps other English speakers) consistently use the expression "Where are you from?" But that is also incorrect, for again, the sentence ends with a preposition! The correct form would be "From where are you?" It may sound awkward, but so what, if it's correct?!

That grammar is different in different languages has nothing to do with it - I was only sharing that little bit of information for your edification!

Of course, I now hear lots of people saying, "He gave that to Joe and I." When I question the use of the pronoun ('I'), the response is that it is more 'proper' to use 'I' when a 'proper name' is used at the same time!

So, pray tell, have all the rules of grammar been swept away in a tide of what is 'proper' or easy or 'in style' and do I HAVE agita over this for nothing? AARRGGH!

Shoshannah

tsuwm - a question: why would I BE agitated but HAVE agita?????


suzanne pomeranz, tourism consultant jerusalem, israel - suztours@gmail.com
#22151 03/11/01 07:27 PM
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Re:"Well - in MY grammar class a long long long time ago, dear Mrs. Kriminger taught us never to end a sentence, or a thought for that matter, with a preposition"

Dear Shoshannah: Winston Churchill, whose English is almost univerally admired, had a hilarious sentence mocking the compulsion of avoiding sentences with a preposition at the end. I cannot quote it exactly, but it ends "....up with which I will not put."


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