grammatical sentences and nonsense

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#206325 - 07/03/12 05:07 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: zmjezhd]
Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 13667	Well, if you're going to look at it that way, the statement "the current King of France is bald", is neither true nor false but meaningless.
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#206326 - 07/03/12 05:22 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: Faldage]
BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 5249 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague	I think it's neither true nor false and if meaningless only because there is no context. It is a healthy sentence. No, I take that back. It is true. Just so. It only lacks a context. Edited by BranShea (07/03/12 05:35 PM)
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#206327 - 07/03/12 08:19 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: zmjezhd]
Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 13667	A sentence doesn't have to be either true or false. "This statement is false" is a good example. Another one is that famous "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."
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#206328 - 07/04/12 12:42 AM Re: oats and beings [Re: Faldage]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3271 Loc: R'lyeh	A sentence doesn't have to be either true or false. "This statement is false" is a good example. Another one is that famous "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." Yes. If only it weren't so easy. Yes. If only it weren't so difficult. When you start looking into meaning, intention, and truth, you run up against all sorts of folks who've been pondering these things a whole lot longer than us. Of course a sentence does not have to be true or false (in the wholly logical sense). But, then again:　all's I been saying is that logic has bugger all to do with grammar. Let's not lose sight of the OP. That's why I mentioned "situational semantics". And, also why, I brought fiction into things. You can dismiss these things all you want, but it's like not voting in an election: once you've decided not to vote, you don't get to kvetch. At least not without more meaning. _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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#206329 - 07/04/12 03:17 AM Re: oats and beings [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 5249 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague	Maybe grammer can go sleep in many vibrant colors now? Grammar and grammar are not one and the same thing all over this world. Philosophically maybe, but not in practice. I really like to see you bickering over 'what's not'. But when you bring in the OPs, where even looking UP does not help, I will go drink my Orange Pekoe tea. OP Edited by BranShea (07/04/12 07:56 AM) Edit Reason: grrr.. :-)
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#206330 - 07/04/12 06:41 AM Re: oats and beings [Re: zmjezhd]
Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 13667	Originally Posted By: zmjezhd When you start looking into meaning, intention, and truth, you run up against all sorts of folks who've been pondering these things a whole lot longer than us. And some of them still seem to think that, just because we have words we're better off than all those animals that don't. And they still can't past those inconvenient little stumbling blocks like "This sentence is false."
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#206331 - 07/04/12 10:49 AM Re: oaths and matins [Re: Faldage]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3271 Loc: R'lyeh	just because we have words we're better off than all those animals that don't You'll be happy to know that at least one philosopher does not think that language has anything to do with communication. His is a thin book, but I always lose steam halfway through when I try to read it. It helps that he's pretty arrogant and teaches German at UC Santa Cruz. "Lick the magic banana slug!" And they still can't past those inconvenient little stumbling blocks like "This sentence is false." At least old Gödel tried to address that one. _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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#206332 - 07/04/12 10:56 AM Re: Jutes and Geats [Re: BranShea]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3271 Loc: R'lyeh	Grammar and grammar are not one and the same thing all over this world. See, you're getting the hang of it. What's the truth value of the quoted sentence? So, when I use a word I know what it means and the rest of you know what you mean by that self-same word. That way, when I talk about peonies and paeans, you're thinking 'bout flowers and odes to Fruchtheit, but I'm thinking about posttransitive verbal clitics and anthologies of bloomenkvist, but it does not matter what we're thinking on, cuz those thoughts can never escape our addled brainpane. Original Post. _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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#206333 - 07/04/12 11:23 AM Re: Jutes and Geats [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 5249 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague	This looks like an exam. Up to OP this was all constructive instruction, even though there was some quizzing involved. Charles the Bold (de Stoute) was bold in Old Dutch, in modern Dutch he would be Charles (Karel) the Naughty. ( stout today = naughty, not bold) This was explained to us in primary school to prevent giggles. It proves once more that the meaning of words as said before changes with time. PS. The truth value is stable. Edited by BranShea (07/04/12 11:31 AM)
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#206351 - 07/05/12 11:09 AM Re: grammatical sentences and nonsense [Re: zmjezhd]
Jackie Carpal Tunnel Registered: 03/15/00 Posts: 11582 Loc: Louisville, Kentucky	Um...I have struggled through all these posts, and glanced at the Wikipedia article, and at first I was quite confused because it seemed like zmjezhd was saying that because some sentence can't be verified as true, it therefore isn't grammatical. But then there seemed to be a switch to discussing logic...? A whole different concept, she said ungrammatically.
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