grammatical sentences and nonsense

You are not logged in. [Log In] Wordsmith.org » Forums » General Topics » Miscellany » grammatical sentences and nonsense

Page 2 of 4

Topic Options

#206303 - 07/01/12 02:26 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: Faldage]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3269 Loc: R'lyeh	Must is some specialized linguistics definition of logic. It's more of a philosophy of language thang. Russell, Frege, those logician guys ... _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Top

#206309 - 07/02/12 01:10 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 5249 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague	When I write: The present King of France is bald, it is unlogical. In the 9th century, a contempory of Charles the Bald could have said: "The present King of France is bald". If I write a story about Charles II and his time and someone in the story says: - "The present King of France is bald"- how would the logician guys explain the difference 'logical-unlogical? Edited by BranShea (07/02/12 05:32 PM)
Top

#206310 - 07/02/12 01:41 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: BranShea]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3269 Loc: R'lyeh	If I write a story about Charles II and his time and someone in the story sais: - "The present King of France is bald"- how would the logician guys explain the difference 'logical-unlogical? Well, if it's a story, instead of a history, they might say it meaningless. Not sure. Context is always important. I believe the problem goes away if France is a monarchy at the time of writing or uttering and the present King is bald. I guess I posted my thread mainly because I've been thinking about how complicated language and communication are. I've never much been bothered by the "present King of France is bald" kind of paradox (enigma?), but there are / were people whose opinions I respect who are / were obsessed with it. And, my point about the "present King of France is bald" is that whatever its problem(s) may be, it has nothing to do with grammar. The sentence is perfectly grammatical. The problem may have to do with situational semantics or logic or pragmatics or who knows what. _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Top

#206312 - 07/02/12 03:32 PM Re: grough and nonsense [Re: zmjezhd]
tsuwm Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/03/00 Posts: 10463 Loc: this too shall pass	The present King of France is bald could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false?
Top

#206313 - 07/02/12 05:22 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: tsuwm]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3269 Loc: R'lyeh	could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false? It could be, but if you read the article I linked to you'll see why other people don't think so. _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Top

#206316 - 07/03/12 04:49 AM Re: groetsjemeu [Re: tsuwm]
BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 5249 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague	Of course it false. False and mean. Some mistress must have looked under his crown while he was sleeping and she told all the court: "The present King of France is bald". Even worse, who knows what was under the perruques and wigs of all those kings and authorities through the wiggily centuries. History has shown what was under their skull, not what was on it.
Top

#206320 - 07/03/12 11:34 AM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: zmjezhd]
tsuwm Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/03/00 Posts: 10463 Loc: this too shall pass	Originally Posted By: zmjezhd could it be, possibly, that this statement is simply false? It could be, but if you read the article I linked to you'll see why other people don't think so. oh, I did; which seemed to [ahem] beg my question. Edited by tsuwm (07/03/12 04:32 PM) Edit Reason: typo
Top

#206322 - 07/03/12 02:15 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: tsuwm]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3269 Loc: R'lyeh	oh, I did I see. The part that cinched it for me was that logical true statements / propositions can be negated to make them false. So, if "the present King of France is bald" is false, then the inverse statement "the current King of France is not bald" should be true. Do you find the former false and the latter true? I don't. _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Top

#206323 - 07/03/12 03:16 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: zmjezhd]
Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 13653	Originally Posted By: zmjezhd oh, I did I see. The part that cinched it for me was that logical true statements / propositions can be negated to make them false. So, if "the present King of France is bald" is false, then the inverse statement "the current King of France is not bald" should be true. Do you find the former false and the latter true? I don't. Or either the notion that the inverse must be true is itself false. And is "the current King of France is not bald" truly the inverse of "the current King of France is bald"? Remember, it's not the baldness of the current King of France that's true or false, it's the existence of the current King of France.
Top

#206324 - 07/03/12 04:02 PM Re: groats and nonbeans [Re: Faldage]
zmjezhd Carpal Tunnel Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 3269 Loc: R'lyeh	Remember, it's not the baldness of the current King of France that's true or false, it's the existence of the current King of France. I disagree. "the present King of France" is a definite description, like "the first man on the moon" or "the winner of the Kentucky Derby". These terms may or may not have referents but how are they true or false in the same sense as a statement / proposition such as "all humans are mortal"? But, mayhaps, true and false mean something else to you ... _________________________ Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Top

Page 2 of 4

Moderator: Jackie

Forum Stats

8422 Members
16 Forums
13686 Topics
209725 Posts

Max Online: 3341 @ 12/09/11 02:15 PM

Newest Members


	Wordsmith Talk		About Us \| What's New \| Search \| Site Map \| Contact Us

Wordsmith Talk