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#20334 - 02/26/01 11:10 PM apostrophes
Anonymous
Unregistered


My local grocery store is called "Gelson's", and i recently received an ad which included something to the effect of "Gelsons' goal is to.... etc." Is this correct? How do you make a possessive proper noun into a double possessive, of sorts? do you simply drop the initial apostrophe, as they did? surely you wouldn't say "Gelson's' goal", right? I'd defer to their expertise had the ad not been riddled with the it's/its mistake (YART).

TIA


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#20335 - 02/26/01 11:30 PM Re: apostrophes
Bingley Offline
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Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
Technically "Gelson's' goal" would be the correct form, but it would be far better to avoid the problem and say, e.g., "the goal of Gelson's". If it comes to that why not just "our goal"?

Bingley
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Bingley

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#20336 - 02/26/01 11:38 PM Re: apostrophes
Anonymous
Unregistered


You mean to say "Gelson's's goal" would also be correct? *wow*.


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#20337 - 02/27/01 06:17 AM Re: apostrophes
belligerentyouth Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Berlin
'Gelson's' is short for Gelson's place or shop right?
So having two possessives in a row it would be:
Gelson's Shop's goal
Obviously 'Goals of Gelson's (Shop)' would be less of a mouthful.


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#20338 - 02/27/01 07:06 AM Re: apostrophes (it all depends)
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Do they sell potato'es at .99/#?


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#20339 - 02/27/01 11:31 AM Re: apostrophes
Anonymous
Unregistered


..and while we're on the subject of multiple apostrophes: Is I'd've a word? it's used orally quite a bit, but looks awfully strange written down. I'd've simply looked it up, but i figured it'd be easier just to pick your collective brains. well, that plus i'm almost a member....



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#20340 - 02/27/01 11:40 AM Re: apostrophes
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
I'd've
My personal take on this is that if a word exists in oral use, it can always be written down -- that's what writing is for; ergo, it always has the potential to exist in written form and when somebody does write it, there it is. On the other hand, I hold fast to the notion that there is never more than one apostrophe in a word. Notwithstanding that there are two elisions in the present case, I would suppress one and spell it "I'dve".


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#20341 - 02/27/01 11:46 AM Re: apostrophes
wow Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
My personal take on this is that if a word exists in oral use, it can always be written down
-------------------------------------------------
Agreed. Especially when you write conversation as in books. Generally, on this Board, I think we try to write as we'd speak, as we lack the voical tonality to enforce or modify the tone of a post.
wow


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#20342 - 02/27/01 12:25 PM Re: apostrophes
maverick Offline
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Posts: 4757
voical tonality

that reminds me of the way Al used to talk to me in Joisey


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#20343 - 02/27/01 03:39 PM Re: apostrophes
wow Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
One fumble finger and I am in the soup.
Now I know how poor TEd feels.
vocal vocal vocal!!!
wow


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#20344 - 02/28/01 08:29 AM I'd've
NicholasW Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/00
Posts: 393
Loc: London
Double contractions like this don't occur in standard print. I do sometimes use it.

My rule of thumb is to do it if it's needed to show what I say. Written "I have" is pronounced as two distinct words: I don't read it as "I've". Nor do I read "do not" as "don't".

But given written "I'd have", I'd pronounce it as "I'd've", not (normally) with a distinct "have". So there's no need to supply the second contraction in writing, when the standard form "I'd have" is pronounced in the way you want.

That said, I've noticed my use of "I'd've" is increasing, when I'm writing more colloquially.

In the same way, I might write "Elizabeth'll do it", where in serious print you only get pronoun + contraction.


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#20345 - 02/28/01 09:47 AM Re: I'd've
Sparteye Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 1773
In formal writing, I do not use contractions at all.


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#20346 - 02/28/01 09:53 AM Re: I'd've
maverick Offline
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In formal writing, I do not use contractions at all.

...whereas in formal contracts, most lawyers do not use writing at all (or not as we understand it, Jim!)


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#20347 - 02/28/01 09:59 AM Re: I'd've
belMarduk Offline
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Registered: 09/28/00
Posts: 2891
Oh they write all right. They write and write and write and write until the whole point is lost in a jumble of words so obscure that it is quite unintelligible to the average human being.


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#20348 - 02/28/01 10:03 AM Re: I'd've
maverick Offline
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quite unintelligible to the average human being...

...requiring another lawyer to translate it for you... [$$$$$]


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#20349 - 02/28/01 10:04 AM Re: I'd've
Sparteye Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 1773
Well, if we just wrote it in plain English so everyone could understand it, we'd write ourselves right out of our jobs, now, wouldn't we? We're not as dumb as we look!


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#20350 - 02/28/01 10:09 AM Re: I'd've
maverick Offline
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No wonder medical malpractice is such a killer in the States - just imagine all those doctors talking one language to all those lawyers talking another - and neither speaking English! hey, we need some Esperanto around here


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#20351 - 02/28/01 12:21 PM Re: I'd've
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
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Loc: lower upstate New York
I'm kinda partial to y'all'll


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#20352 - 02/28/01 12:46 PM Re: I'd've
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
formal writing
I tend to agree, sort of. I view written English as different from spoken English, more formal. Hence, I use few contractions in writing, which means that my style, as people are always telling me, is stiff, pedantic, pretentious, elegant, old-fashioned, (choose one or more), depending on who is doing the telling. However, I have developed a new, freer style more like spoken English for e-mail and chat-room purposes, which I feel are supposed to be a sort of written conversation.


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#20353 - 02/28/01 01:27 PM Re: Y'all'll
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
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Or Y'all'll've


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#20354 - 02/28/01 01:38 PM Re: Y'all'll
Anonymous
Unregistered


or y'all'ven't've


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#20355 - 02/28/01 02:07 PM Re: formal writing
Sparteye Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 1773
Bobyoungbalt - stick with your formal writing when writing formally, critics be damned. A more casual voice is certainly appropriate for e-mail and chat-room purposes, but then, those aren't formal writings.

I can't imagine the hue and cry which would arise if I used slang, contractions, or idioms in my chief work products. But they are not pedantic; I am a torchbearer for the plain-English-in-legal-writing movement.


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#20356 - 02/28/01 02:41 PM Re: formal writing
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Do you mean to say lawyers are not still paid by the word?



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#20357 - 02/28/01 03:10 PM Re: Y'all'll etc
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
Nuthin' like furriners tryin' to do the fyutchah pehfect in Suthrin. We do admire y'all's attempts, though, darlins. Now kin y'all pernounce them wehds?


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#20358 - 02/28/01 03:43 PM Re: Y'all'll etc
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
I'm not sure about Bridget's contribution (y'all'ven't've) but I can handle Y'all'll've jes fine. You just gotta wiggle your tongue around while you're saying it.


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#20359 - 02/28/01 04:14 PM Re: Y'all'll etc
Anonymous
Unregistered


well, that's because y'all'vent've had enough practice =)


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#20360 - 02/28/01 04:21 PM pronouncing
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
Faldage,
Not bad for a damyankee

Bridget,
You lose this? '


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#20361 - 02/28/01 04:23 PM Re: pronouncing
Anonymous
Unregistered


ah... yes.... why thanks, anna. it fell off of my poppyseed bun. good thing it landed here, and not in my keyboard.


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#20362 - 03/01/01 04:27 AM Re: I'd've
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 3146
Loc: Northamptonshire, England
Sparteye wrote: Well, if we just wrote it in plain English so everyone could understand it, we'd write ourselves right out of our jobs, now, wouldn't we? We're not as dumb as we look!

But, my good fellow, your profession will, I assure you, be first against the wall when I get this revolution thingummyjig off the ground! Now, where did I put that spanner? I think I'm sitting on the book of instructions. And just who is this Che Guevara chappie anyway, and why do I have to have 1,000 black berets and grow a beard?

_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#20363 - 03/01/01 07:33 AM Re: lawyers
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
"fellow"???

rut-roh....


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#20364 - 03/01/01 09:56 AM Re: lawyers
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
As Robespierre said to Danton, CK, the mons veneris may be your Tarpeian Rock!


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#20365 - 03/02/01 04:14 AM Re: lawyers
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 3146
Loc: Northamptonshire, England
As Robespierre said to Danton, CK, the mons veneris may be your Tarpeian Rock!

You can't get thrown off what you don't get to climb ...

I was addressing a principle, not a gender!



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The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#20366 - 03/02/01 09:07 AM the execution of privates, or something
Sparteye Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/05/01
Posts: 1773
Capital Kiwi is in good company in perceiving the elimination of lawyers as an essential element of revolution. Shakespeare's revolutionary villain said it best,

"The first thing we do, is kill all the lawyers."

As to the fellow part, I've never minded crossing gender terms, and I never take offense when offense isn't intended. I have completely enjoyed the camaraderie, on this and other boards, of being addressed as "guv," "mate," "fellow", and (oh my gosh!) "dude." Keep 'em coming.


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#20367 - 03/03/01 10:46 PM Re: apostrophes
TEd Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
.Now I know how poor TEd feels.

With his fingertips

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TEd

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#20368 - 03/04/01 10:18 AM Re: the execution of privates, or something
wow Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 3439
Loc: New England, USA
Capital Kiwi is in good company in perceiving the elimination of lawyers as an essential element of revolution.

OTOH, when you are out in cold, deserted, needing help, the two people most welcome, depending on circumstances, are:
a Mechanic or a Lawyer!
wow
P.S. AnnaS : here's one to answer ... just trying to help you reach your goal!


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#20369 - 03/04/01 05:00 PM Re: Mechanic or Lawyer
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
P.S. AnnaS : here's one to answer ... just trying to help you reach your goal!

Thanks, ever-considerate wow I'll take the Mechanic of quantum abilities.


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#20370 - 03/04/01 11:38 PM Re: Y'all'll etc
Shoshannah Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 116
Loc: Jerusalem, ISRAEL
In reply to:

Nuthin' like furriners tryin' to do the fyutchah pehfect in Suthrin. We do admire y'all's attempts, though, darlins.


To this, I will certainly agree, and I am, of course, able to read what you have written given that I am from Nawth Care-liiiiiiiiiinah, although I never in my liiiiiife actually talked like that - except for the effect!
Do ya think we two ought to explain (given the ongoing economic boom being enjoyed by the South) to all these others how we actually DID win the war???
One last question of importance - are you a native Atlantan or a transplant, and do you live IN Atlanta or in one of those fancy new suburbs?

Shoshannah

_________________________
suzanne pomeranz, tourism consultant jerusalem, israel - suztours@gmail.com

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#20371 - 03/05/01 05:45 PM Re: Y'all'll etc
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 1094
Loc: Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
Do ya think we two ought to explain (given the ongoing economic boom being enjoyed by the South) to all these others how we actually DID win the war???

Gee, Reaganomics took a few years to start helping the economy, but I didn't realize that the South's "winning" the Civil War was finally helping the economy after 140 years.


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#20372 - 03/05/01 06:00 PM Re: Y'all'll etc
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
While the North's superior economy decided a war over a hundred years ago, the South's economy has grown while the North's has stagnated. Too much Yankee money went South.
But it strengthened the Nation, and that is good.


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#20373 - 03/05/01 06:41 PM Re: Y'all'll etc
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 1094
Loc: Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
the South's economy has grown while the North's has stagnated.

I wouldn't say that. The economic boom is all over, and we seem to be quite comfortable in the Midwest, except that we have the highest gas prices. All California's gotten from the economic boom is huge inflation. And I think the main reason so many people moved south is due to a warmer climate.


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#20374 - 03/06/01 03:52 PM Agree to Disagree
musick Offline
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
"I wouldn't say that. The economic boom is all over..." - I agree, everybody I know says it is easier to live every day life (the traffic boom here in the city will be 'splayn i't'y'all)

"All California's gotten from the economic boom is huge inflation." - It's about time they pay extra for the extra ego pollution (ducking from Bridget96 emoticon)

"Gee, Reaganomics took a few years to start helping the economy" - don't get me started on that fallacy... how much do YOU (the current collective YOU) expect to pay for 8 years of college (inflation my, but).

People are moving to warmer climates to escape the inflated gas prices that the Gas profiteers are used to because of Reaganomics... ... aside from this issue, is it not mainly the major metro's that are enjoying economic boom in the south and not the rural remainder?



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#20375 - 03/06/01 04:10 PM Re: Agree to Disagree
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bridget smiles amiably and assures *mr* musick that no offense was taken, then executes a nice clean roundhouse to the kidneys. Don't forget, in addition to exercising our egos, we have a fascination with healthy pastimes such as kickboxing.


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#20376 - 03/06/01 05:58 PM Re: Agree to Disagree
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 1094
Loc: Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
"Gee, Reaganomics took a few years to start helping the economy" - don't get me started on that fallacy...

Any economist or historian would tell you that "Reaganomics" is an effective way of improving the economy. It's like a train engine that takes a while to get started, but then gets rolling along. Reagan's economic policies are what caused the successes of the '90s. Clinton was intelligent and didn't mess with it and then took all the credit.

As for Reagan creating the current national debt, it was a very effective method of crippling the Russians and ending the Cold War. Half of the reason the debt skyrocketed was because he had a Democratic congress that insisted of spending so much money on other issues while lowering taxes. (We often don't give the Congress enough credit when they're usually responsible for the state of the nation.)

(And Reaganomics is just the supply-side economics started by Alexander Hamilton, who just happens to be one of the only two non-presidents on US paper currency.)


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#20377 - 03/06/01 06:19 PM Re: Agree to Disagree
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
Any economist or historian would tell you that "Reaganomics" is an effective way of improving the economy.

Given the subjectivity intrinsic to those disciplines, one could always find a practitioner of either or both to say whatever one wished to hear. The one thing that can be said with certainty is that economists and historians are truly ayleurs, in the acronymic sense of the word.


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#20378 - 03/06/01 06:33 PM Tickle - vs trickle
musick Offline
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
My comment was of a personal nature based upon my experience of education costs doubling when the decision was made that certain grants were a "waste of money"!

Perpetuating the illusion that supporting only supply side economics is a good thing (ie, promoting commmercial goods to a point that they becomes consumables) builds a "false economy", or, more specifically, a specific view of economics... which brings us to politics. Talk to hand here - and me privately.

JazzO, funny how you answer a comment with a after it faster than one with a question mark.


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#20379 - 03/06/01 07:45 PM Re: Tickle - vs trickle
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
I am unable to understand the justification for college yearly tuition jumping from $400 in 1935 to $20,000 today.
The latter figure is hearsay, but I think it is nearly that.At least I have not deliberately exaggerated.


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#20380 - 03/06/01 09:26 PM Tickle, Tickle!
musick Offline
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
Interesting! There must be a word for this!

My exageration was not intended, though understandably deduced. My tuition rates actually doubled the year after I lost the aforesaid grant (effecting (useage?) an even larger proportion)!

Perception is reality?


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#20381 - 03/07/01 06:43 AM Re: Tickle - vs trickle
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 1094
Loc: Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
college yearly tuition jumping from $400 in 1935 to $20,000 today.

I can't say much about the price for college in 1935 because it was some 50 years before I was born, but the public university that I'll be attending next year is about $5,500 per year for tuition. Room and board, tuition, books, etc. is a total of $60,000 over four years. (That's how much they give for their full scholarship, which I wouldn't mind receiving. ) I think part of the reason for the soaring price of college is that more people want to go and everyone is realizing how valuable a college education is in the current job market.

And musick, there wasn't a after the main comment that I replied to. But about the question marked statement, I think it's obvious that the economic boom is happening mainly in the 'burbs around the big cities. The inner cities aren't doing too well. The city of Cincinnati, for one, had a population decrease of around 30,000 over the last 10 years, while the suburbs are doing well. Good ol' urban sprawl.


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#20382 - 03/07/01 11:34 AM Re: Tickle - vs trickle
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
cost increases
The first thing you need to keep in mind is the increase in the cost of living and the decline in the value of money. In 1935, when my parents graduated from high school, my father went to work for $14 per week and that wasn't bad money for a single man. You could raise a family on $25 per week if you were frugal. A pair of Florsheim shoes cost $7.50; a good suit was $25.00; a new Chevrolet was $650; a small row house was $2000 to $4000.

As late as 1957, when I started college, $50 a week was not a bad salary and you could certainly live on it. In my first 2 years, I paid $600 per semester tuition; room and meals was another $300, books came to about $50 (a book costing $10 was high priced). By the time I graduated, in 1961, it had gone up about $100 per year. Now, the tuition at Johns Hopkins is, I believe, about $22,000 per year for an undergraduate.


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