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From today's word of the day email, in situ is defined as meaning in the original place. It seems more like a prepositional phrase to me. Perhaps somebody can gently educate me on why it's an adverb.

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The phrase also seems to be used by paleontologists as an adjective to describe fossils found where in the same strata they were originally embedded in. You can google the term "in situ fossils."

Example usages at

http://en.scientificcommons.org/33282359

and

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1502-3931.2007.00029.x/abstract

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It's a prepositional phrase but it's being used adverbially. Does that work for you?

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I use this word several times a day, in my job, but didn't realise it was two words. Its always written as insitu. Usually to described where a patients dentures are (after surgery and returning to the ward).

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Originally Posted By: Candy
Usually to described where a patients dentures are (after surgery and returning to the ward).

And that would be where? In a glass by the side of the patient's bed? In the patient's mouth? Stomach?

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Originally Posted By: Faldage
It's a prepositional phrase but it's being used adverbially. Does that work for you?


No it does not. It does not seem to me to be being used in an adverbial way. My initial reaction to this was more of a gut response, but I consulted a grammar reference that pointed out a rule to the effect that a preposition without an object can be an adverb, while a preposition with an object is just a garden variety preposition.

Hence in the command "Go inside," inside is an adverb according to this rule. But in the command "Color inside the lines," inside is not an adverb because it has an object. I argue that the Latin expression in situ carries with it its own object, situ, and is therefore not an adverb, or least does not appear to be. AWAD provided the usage as "The sound engineers came to record the nuns in situ." It seems to me that in situ here is analogous to any of the following prepositional phrases, all of which have objects:

1. The sound engineers came to record the nuns at the convent.
2. The sound engineers came to record the nuns in the sanctuary.
3. The sound engineers came to record the nuns in the cloister.

I can't think of a way that in situ could be used in a way that is analogous to saying "Sit down" or "Take off," but I'm open to the possibility.

As an aside, in situ is generally used as an adjective, as in the difference between invasive ductal carcinoma and ductal carcinoma in situ, or the difference between in situ testing and laboratory testing. If you re-wrote the AWAD usage example as "The sound engineers performed an in situ recording of the nuns," then the expression in situ clearly modifies the noun recording and not the verb to perform.

Finally, I find the above rule regarding the presence or absence of an object to be stupid. It really fails to distinguish between an implied object and the true absence of any object. If someone says "Go outside!" they clearly mean "Go outside the building in which you are currently located." To say that outside is modifying the verb in the way of a garden variety abverb like quickly is to cast a wide net regarding what constitutes an adverb. It seems much more logical to simply ask if the prepositional phrase really tells us something about how the verb is being acted out. For example, take the following two sentences:

1. Bob waited for the elevator with a heavy heart.

2. Bob waited for the elevator to the flight deck.

In #1, the prepositional expression modifies Bob's act of waiting. There's an object but with a heavy heart is a figure of speech that modifies the verb here. It is along the same lines as saying that he waited anxiously, or that he waited nervously. In #2, the prepositional phrase clearly modifies the elevator, not Bob's act of waiting.

Last edited by Alex Williams; 11/16/10 03:16 PM.
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I'm with Faldo on this one. One way of determining a part of speech (word class, lexical category) is by form. They're those words that end in -ly in English. Another way is by what slots they fill in sentences "I found the book ___". The former is the older grammatical tradition, and the latter is the newer one. If you limit adverbs by form, you get a bunch of exceptions like fast, yesterday, etc. The slot method just seems better suited for a language like English which is not overly burdened with inflections, such as Greek or Latin.

If, I say: "I found the gold hoard in situ", it is answering the question "where did you find the gold hoard", and that pretty much seems like an adverb to me. Those who prefer the the by form method of identification usually also have problems with constituents (sentential units) consisting of more than one word. For me, prepositional phrases can be adjectives or adverbs, or used adjectivally or adverbially.


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Honestly, I don't think you've addressed my points at all. And Faldage merely said it was a preposition being used adverbially. He didn't say why or how, and you're just saying that you're with Faldage.

Clearly, prepositions and preopisitonal phrases can be used as adverbs, and I provided some examples. I just don't think that in situ really qualifies, either by the rule of having an object or not, or by the rule of "if it sounds funny to hell with it." Given that in situ translates as "in the place," it clearly has an object. So unless somebody can show me a usage that is akin to saying "Get out," "Go west," or "Drive south" then I'm unconvinced of its claim to adverbial status. I would also accept a usage that met my own criteria, one that had an object but still clearly modified the verb itself.

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Originally Posted By: Alex Williams
Given that in situ translates as "in the place," ...


Wrong... at least in catalan...
If I say Vaig veure l'accident in situ (I saw the accident in situ) that means I was in the wright place at the wright time, that is, when the accident happened.

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>So unless somebody can show me a usage that is akin to saying "Get out," "Go west," or "Drive south" then I'm unconvinced of its claim to adverbial status.

"What shall we do with the artifacts we found?"
"Leave them in situ."

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Originally Posted By: tsuwm
>So unless somebody can show me a usage that is akin to saying "Get out," "Go west," or "Drive south" then I'm unconvinced of its claim to adverbial status.

"What shall we do with the artifacts we found?"
"Leave them in situ."


Okay, I can accept that if it is meant to be equivalent as "Leave them there." And yet if you said "Leave them in that place" it would just be a plain old preposition.

As for the Catalan, well...

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Originally Posted By: Alex Williams
And yet if you said "Leave them in that place" it would just be a plain old preposition.


In is a preposition, In that place is not. It is a prepositional phrase that is acting adverbially.

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In is a preposition, In that place is not. It is a prepositional phrase that is acting adverbially.

I thought that's what I said above. (Scratches head.) One problem I have with folks who've learned the "old-fashioned" grammar (or what I would call the traditional Graeco-Roman one), is that they don't actually use the traditional terminology consistently. In is a Latin preposition; situ is a Latin noun in the ablative case. The ablative can be used instrumentally in Latin syntax, which roughly means what Faldo meant by adverbally. For example, gladio militem vulnat ("s/he wounds the soldier with a sword.")

[Fixed typos and a translation error.]

Last edited by zmjezhd; 11/17/10 01:40 PM.

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... Deleted post ... Sorry ...

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Originally Posted By: Faldage
In is a preposition, In that place is not. It is a prepositional phrase that is acting adverbially.


Even you identify the phrase as prepositional phrase and state that it is acting as an adverb. Let's say I accept that it [the phrase] is acting as an adverb. Fine. Now you tell me, suppose you write the "Phrase a Day" email and today's phrase is "in the place." Do you identify this phrase as an adverb? Would that be the most direct way of identifying what this phrase is? I say that no, it would not. This "Phrase of the Day" is a prepositional phrase. That's what it is and what it will remain when it punches the clock and goes home to the wife. If you want to construct a sentence that uses it as an adverb, go right ahead. But by and large this phrase is a prepositional phrase, and if you intend to introduce it to the world it would be most appropriate to introduce it as what it really is, not as what it is currently serving as in a particular case.

Similarly, if you're hosting a cook-out, and the neurosurgeon next door is helping you out by cooking the hotdogs, you might playfully introduce him or her as your chef, but if someone asked you in seriousness what he did for a living, you wouldn't say "Oh, he's a hotdog chef" except as a jest. In seriousness, you'd say he was a neurosurgeon.

Or, if you know of a famous movie director who uses an Academy Award statue as a door stop, you wouldn't identify such a statue as a doorstop in a didactic setting. You'd identify it as an award.

So now let's turn back to this phrase borrowed from Latin, in situ. How would one best introduce this phrase to the world? As an adverb? I say no. That's not the essence of its being. It is a Latin prepositional phrase that that can be pressed into service, I will grudgingly admit, as an adverb in a very broad sense, but it is very often used as an adjective. So in putting together a list of words or phrases under the heading of adverbs, I would not include this phrase.

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So now let's turn back to this phrase borrowed from Latin, in situ. How would one best introduce this phrase to the world? As an adverb? I say no. That's not the essence of its being. It is a Latin prepositional phrase that that can be pressed into service, I will grudgingly admit, as an adverb in a very broad sense, but it is very often used as an adjective. So in putting together a list of words or phrases under the heading of adverbs, I would not include this phrase.

Ah, well, what do we mean by is an adverb? wink To me things bigger than words can be any part of speech when they fill the slot for that part of speech. The terms, after all, are really just arbitrary labels that somebody came up with during an analysis of the language (or borrowed from somewhere else) and applied. And dictionaries try to give succinct information about how a word, term, phrase is used syntactically in in a sentence.

It's kind of like compounds. What is "backseat driver"? I would say it's a compound noun. Others would say it was two nouns, with one masquerading as an adjective. Syntactically, backseat driver works just like book or bagel, and that's why it'd be a noun for me. I realize that you find all this rubbish, as is your right.

I did not mention before, but part of how I analyse the situation of in situ (here it's a noun) is colored by what I have studied about heads in linguistics (link). All phrase have a head, that is the word (whose part of speech-ness) that determines the the the part of speech that the phrase is. Anyway, one of the problems I have with a traditional analysis of prepositions in English is that many of them show up in two different places: i.e., as particles (or preverbs in the older tradition) that attach themselves more or less to verbs given the verbs new meanings. For me, in "Mary looked up the author online", looked up is a verb. I am nervous calling up a preposition here, because it's not acting like one. Up in this instance is acting more like an adverb (mirabile dictu). The up can even move behind the noun (or noun phrase) that it can be imagined to be the preposition of: e.g., "Mary looked the author up online". So, is up a preposition that plays an adverb or a verbal particle, or does it belong to some other category that traditional grammarians did not notice or name?

Ah, well, I can tell I am not convincing you, and though I understand your analysis, I just don't think it would too helpful to the users of the dictionary. Folks who haven't studied Latin don't know how to analyze the phrase in situ, anymore than they know how to analyze the phrase I used above (which is categorized in the dictionary as an interjection). For them, in situ is a funny word (or phrase) that can be used as an adjective or an adverb. In the end it's not so much about what you call it as how you use it.


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Originally Posted By: Alex Williams
Originally Posted By: tsuwm
>So unless somebody can show me a usage that is akin to saying "Get out," "Go west," or "Drive south" then I'm unconvinced of its claim to adverbial status.

"What shall we do with the artifacts we found?"
"Leave them in situ."


Okay, I can accept that if it is meant to be equivalent as "Leave them there." And yet if you said "Leave them in that place" it would just be a plain old preposition.

As for the Catalan, well...


Wrong traslation, I think...

you can say I enjoyed the concert in situ; that is you were in the concert when the concert was playing (right time AND place). You didn't watch it on TV or in Youtube... although you were watching it at the right time.

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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
Ah, well, what do we mean by is an adverb? wink To me things bigger than words can be any part of speech when they fill the slot for that part of speech. The terms, after all, are really just arbitrary labels that somebody came up with during an analysis of the language (or borrowed from somewhere else) and applied. And dictionaries try to give succinct information about how a word, term, phrase is used syntactically in in a sentence.

It's kind of like compounds. What is "backseat driver"? I would say it's a compound noun. Others would say it was two nouns, with one masquerading as an adjective. Syntactically, backseat driver works just like book or bagel, and that's why it'd be a noun for me. I realize that you find all this rubbish, as is your right.

I did not mention before, but part of how I analyse the situation of in situ (here it's a noun) is colored by what I have studied about heads in linguistics (link). All phrase have a head, that is the word (whose part of speech-ness) that determines the the the part of speech that the phrase is. Anyway, one of the problems I have with a traditional analysis of prepositions in English is that many of them show up in two different places: i.e., as particles (or preverbs in the older tradition) that attach themselves more or less to verbs given the verbs new meanings. For me, in "Mary looked up the author online", looked up is a verb. I am nervous calling up a preposition here, because it's not acting like one. Up in this instance is acting more like an adverb (mirabile dictu). The up can even move behind the noun (or noun phrase) that it can be imagined to be the preposition of: e.g., "Mary looked the author up online". So, is up a preposition that plays an adverb or a verbal particle, or does it belong to some other category that traditional grammarians did not notice or name?

Ah, well, I can tell I am not convincing you, and though I understand your analysis, I just don't think it would too helpful to the users of the dictionary. Folks who haven't studied Latin don't know how to analyze the phrase in situ, anymore than they know how to analyze the phrase I used above (which is categorized in the dictionary as an interjection). For them, in situ is a funny word (or phrase) that can be used as an adjective or an adverb. In the end it's not so much about what you call it as how you use it.


As a matter of fact I have studied Latin (mirabile dictu), although not beyond 2 semesters. Nevertheless I don't think that you can settle this question by referring to Latin grammar. It may shed some light on it but Latin grammar does not have the last word. And, I agree that backseat driver is a compound noun.

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I saw the adverb "in situ"on AWAD and yesterday, Tuesday, it was a "question" on Jeopardy. No one of the contestants got it but I did and shouted to the TV
"What is "in situ",what is" in situ, " smile

Last edited by Judith O'Neil; 11/17/10 07:31 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Judith O'Neil
I saw the adverb "in situ"on AWAD and yesterday, Tuesday, it was a "question" on Jeopardy. No one of the contestants got it but I did and shouted to the TV
"What is "in situ",what is" in situ, " smile


the answer was "adverb"?!
(heh)

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Nevertheless I don't think that you can settle this question by referring to Latin grammar.

Exactly. In situ, in English, can be either an adjective or an adverb. Even the dictionary agrees with me. wink QED.


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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Candy
Usually to described where a patients dentures are (after surgery and returning to the ward).

And that would be where? In a glass by the side of the patient's bed? In the patient's mouth? Stomach?



Was that a rhetorical Q LOL

just in case not.....

dentures in situ
adverb: In their original place

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Originally Posted By: Candy
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Candy
Usually to described where a patients dentures are (after surgery and returning to the ward).

And that would be where? In a glass by the side of the patient's bed? In the patient's mouth? Stomach?



Was that a rhetorical Q LOL

just in case not.....

dentures in situ
adverb: In their original place


Ah! So, back in the dentist's office.

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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
Nevertheless I don't think that you can settle this question by referring to Latin grammar.

Exactly. In situ, in English, can be either an adjective or an adverb. Even the dictionary agrees with me. wink QED.



I wouldn't know a prescriptivist if I saw one. crazy

Yesterday I recalled having heard the rule prohibiting sentence-final prepositions. I googled and found this...

"The problem is, English is not Latin, an insight lost on prescriptivists. Latin has cases and every Latin preposition is associated with a case. For example, the word for "wine" in Latin is vinum. However, the prepositional phrase corresponding to "in wine" is in vino (as in 'in vino veritas'; 'wine brings out the truth') ending on the Ablative case marker, -o, because in was associated with the Ablative case. So the suffix of vin-o identifies the noun vin-um as the object of the preposition in and not the object of any other preposition in the sentence; in short, they go together."

...from the collected works of the phantom linguist. Ending a sentence with a preposition

clicked for me...thanks

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Yesterday I recalled having heard the rule prohibiting sentence-final prepositions.

The false rule of English usage (not really a grammar rule) was invented by the poet Dryden, who was so obsessed by it that he re-edited all his earlier works to weed it out. So misguided. Even Bishop Lowth, probably the greatest 18th century normative grammarian, poked gentle fun at this "rule" by mildly denouncing it with a sentence that ended in a preposition.


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"The Preposition is often separated from the Relative which it governs, and joined to the Verb at the end of the Sentence, or of some member of it: as, " Horace is an author, whom I am much delighted with." " The world is too well bred to shock authors with a truth, which generally their booksellers are the first that inform them of [2]." This is an idiom, which our language is strongly inclined to: it prevails in common conversation, and suits very well with the familiar style in writing: but the placing of the Preposition before the Relative is more graceful, as well as more perspicuous."
- Bp Robert Lowth, A short introduction to English grammar

so that's the key: be more perspicuous in your usage!!

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so that's the key: be more perspicuous in your usage!!

Ain't that the truth!

I have a copy of Lowth's Short Intro, and I cherish it. Though, now, of course, it's available in some countries online at Google Books.


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