Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#188745 - 01/14/10 09:44 AM canonical, from canon to cannons !?
1 = 0 Offline
stranger

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2
Loc: .lu.eu
(I'm not sure this is the right place to write/ask, but i'll do it).

In today's word, "canonical", the etymology says

Quote:
ETYMOLOGY:
From Latin canon (measuring rod, rule), from Greek kanon (rule).


I am trying to understand the link between the Latin and Greek and the more modern "canon" (or cannon as it seems to be spelled in English) which is a piece of artillery.

"Obvious" reasoning would suggest that the first cannons were measured with a measuring rod (?) but that's just a hypothesis.

Does anyone know how the word (and spelling evolved to this ?

thanks
Serge

Top
#188747 - 01/14/10 11:15 AM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: 1 = 0]
twosleepy Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 876
Loc: western NY
Check this link: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cannon

It appears more related to cannoli than canon... :0)

Top
#188760 - 01/14/10 07:52 PM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: 1 = 0]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
I am trying to understand the link between the Latin and Greek and the more modern "canon" (or cannon as it seems to be spelled in English) which is a piece of artillery.

The link between the Latin and the Greek is that the Romans borrowed the Greek word. The weapon cannon ultimately comes from the Latin word canna 'tube' with an augmentative suffix, i.e., 'big tube'.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

Top
#188764 - 01/14/10 09:20 PM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: 1 = 0]
latishya Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 390
Loc: कहीं &...
is it safe to assume that there is a relationship between the English 'canon' and the Hindi कानून 'kAnUn', meaning 'law'?

Top
#188771 - 01/15/10 12:09 AM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: latishya]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
is it safe to assume that there is a relationship between the English 'canon' and the Hindi कानून 'kAnUn', meaning 'law'?

I'd say there is, and it is a case of Hindi borrowing the English word.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

Top
#188772 - 01/15/10 04:43 AM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: zmjezhd]
latishya Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 390
Loc: कहीं &...
thank you that makes sense.

Top
#188774 - 01/15/10 06:00 AM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: twosleepy]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Originally Posted By: twosleepy
Check this link: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cannon

It appears more related to cannoli than canon... :0)

So cannoli and cannon come from the same L. canna.
Aye...cannoli Link (I've eaten the missing one)

Top
#188782 - 01/15/10 04:13 PM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6489
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
I get some cannoli weekly from a friend who does catering.
Brings me some left over's. Love'em and love him for doing so.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

Top
#188789 - 01/15/10 05:58 PM Re: canonical, from canon to cannons !? [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
A great quote from The Godfather:

Clemenza: Leave the gun; take the cannoli.

The clip on YouTube.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

Top
#188790 - 01/15/10 09:39 PM Cannas [Re: zmjezhd]
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky

Top
#188794 - 01/16/10 07:01 AM Re: Cannas [Re: Jackie]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Are those cannoli flowers?

See the happy peasants joyously harvesting the ripe cannoli in the early fall sunshine.

Top
#188796 - 01/16/10 10:53 PM Re: Cannas [Re: Faldage]
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Canna you see what they are?

Top
#188798 - 01/17/10 10:18 AM Re: Cannas [Re: Jackie]
tsuwm Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10522
Loc: this too shall pass
..or, RTF subject?!
-ron o.

Top
#188799 - 01/17/10 12:49 PM Re: Cannas [Re: tsuwm]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
RTFS?! That's cheating!

Top
#188800 - 01/17/10 09:27 PM Re: Cannas [Re: Faldage]
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
RFL!

Top
#189017 - 01/31/10 04:43 AM Re: Cannas [Re: Jackie]
Mit Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 13
Sorry, I know this is a bit out of date, and I'm not sure whether this would go here or in a new thread.

Just thought I'd mention that another meaning canon has taken on is, in terms of the lore of a novel or game, what is 'true' in the world of that game/novel, for example in Tolkein's Middle Earth, an example of canon would be that Hobbit's feet are covered in curly hair similar to that on their head, or that there were nine Ringwraiths.

Top
#189028 - 01/31/10 01:55 PM Re: Cannas [Re: Mit]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
canon defs.
Hi, that would come close to definition nr. 5 in this list, maybe? Standard or matter of fact?

Top
#189029 - 01/31/10 02:58 PM Re: Cannas [Re: BranShea]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
I believe that canon used in this way is shorthand for the topic does not occur in the canon, that is the accepted books of an author or franchise.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

Top
#189030 - 01/31/10 04:55 PM Re: Cannas [Re: zmjezhd]
tsuwm Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10522
Loc: this too shall pass
yes, as in sense 5 here.

Top
#189062 - 02/02/10 01:01 AM Re: Cannas [Re: tsuwm]
Mit Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/09/09
Posts: 13
Not quite. I did check the definitions given to make sure it wasn't already there (this time), and when you said it was definition 5, I checked again. Completely different things. Definition 5 refers to the authenticity of the works themselves and to whom they're attributed, whereas the definition I've posted is more in relation to the "facts" of a fictional world. I just read the weekly wrap-up thing from that week (yeah, I'm a little bit behind in my emails - 50, in fact), and a few people had sent in the definition I posted, although they always seemed to relate it to comic books, and they're understanding of breaking canon was different to mine (I would only say something breaks canon if it directly contradicts previously stated canon, whereas their explanations imply (to me, at least) that basically anything new that a fan doesn't like breaks canon).

This is all assuming I've understood correctly and you're saying that the definition I posted is the same as definition 5 in that link.

Also, I have a feeling that canon may have been a title or something in some church or another given to a person, but I could be very wrong there.


Edited by Mit (02/02/10 01:01 AM)

Top
#189069 - 02/02/10 06:52 AM Re: Cannas [Re: Mit]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
If the term is used as in "that Hobbit's feet are covered in curly hair similar to that on their head is canon" then I would say it is definition 5 with the added fillip of that rhetorical device, whose name I do not remember, where a thing is referred to by the name of the thing of which it is a part, as in "Washington announced today that ..." where Washington refers to a spokesman for some branch of the federal government. On the other hand, it could just be a shortening of the adjective canonical, in which case it would still be from definition 5 extended to include things other than the body of written works of a brick and mortar author.

Top
#189070 - 02/02/10 08:04 AM Re: Cannas [Re: Faldage]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
Metonymy or pars pro toto?
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

Top
#189089 - 02/03/10 06:53 AM Re: Cannas [Re: zmjezhd]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Metonymy was the first thing to spring to my mind but it seems that's more the other way around. I couldn't find a term for totus pro parte in the Forest.

Top
#189092 - 02/03/10 10:20 AM Re: Cannas [Re: Faldage]
tsuwm Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10522
Loc: this too shall pass
synecdoche
[L. a. Gk synekdoche] /suh NEK duh kee/ (rhymes with Schenectady* : )
a figure by which a more comprehensive term is used for a less comprehensive or vice versa; as whole for part or part for whole, genus for species or species for genus, etc. (compare metonymy) [wwftd]

*see the movie, Synecdoche, New York (2008)

edit: bemused by the definitions? this probly won't help..
wikilink


Edited by tsuwm (02/03/10 10:28 AM)

Top
#189096 - 02/04/10 06:58 AM Re: Cannas [Re: tsuwm]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
I looked up synecdoche and thought there was something wrong with it. Turns out it was just my old trick of not reading all the way through. Synecdoche works both ways. Surely there must be a word that only means 'the whole for a part'.

Top
#189097 - 02/04/10 07:00 AM Re: Cannas [Re: Faldage]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

Top
#189098 - 02/04/10 09:11 AM Re: Cannas [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Pars pro totum is one thing. "the crew consisted of 200 heads" makes a sound example.
The examples for totum pro parte are really a little weak in this article, it seems to me. Nobody says: "I go for two weeks to the Republic of Ireland". Just: "I go for two weeks to Ireland". " The Republic of Ireland", can that be seen as a whole and Ireland as a part? I don't get it.

Top
#189105 - 02/04/10 08:06 PM Re: Cannas [Re: BranShea]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Originally Posted By: BranShea
" The Republic of Ireland", can that be seen as a whole and Ireland as a part? I don't get it.


It's the other way around. They're giving examples of a larger geographical unit being used for a subset of that larger unit. Ireland includes Northern Ireland, a part of the UK, on the one hand and The Republic of Ireland on the other.

Top
#189450 - 02/22/10 03:41 PM Re: Cannas [Re: Faldage]
beck123 Offline
addict

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 655
Loc: Florida, USA
Synecdoche works both ways: "all hands on board" and "Detroit beat Dallas last week" are both examples of synecdoche. There may be a rhetorical device that addresses just one or the other, but I'm not aware of such a thing. Of course, there may be phrases that express the idea of one or the other, but I don't believe these phrases are "official" rhetorical devices.

Earlier, someone wrote that Hindi must have borrowed the word (=canon) from English. More likely, they are both descended from the same proto-Indoeuropean language, as was William Conrad.
_________________________
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous

Top
#189453 - 02/22/10 04:19 PM Re: Cannas [Re: beck123]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
someone wrote that Hindi must have borrowed the word (=canon) from English. More likely, they are both descended from the same proto-Indoeuropean language, as was William Conrad.

Not likely, words that begin with a c in Latin (canna 'tube') or a k in Greek (kanōn 'rule') do not correspond to words in Indic (Hindi and Sanskrit) beginning in k; cf. for instance Latin centum with Sanskrit śatem '100'. The name Conrad is Germanic, and there an initial k does not correspond with initial Latin c; cf. canis 'dog' and hound.
_________________________
Ceci n'est pas un seing.

Top
#189457 - 02/22/10 05:30 PM Re: Cannas [Re: beck123]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6489
Loc: Land of the Flat Water
Originally Posted By: beck123
Synecdoche works both ways: "all hands on board" and "Detroit beat Dallas last week" are both examples of synecdoche. There may be a rhetorical device that addresses just one or the other, but I'm not aware of such a thing. Of course, there may be phrases that express the idea of one or the other, but I don't believe these phrases are "official" rhetorical devices.

Earlier, someone wrote that Hindi must have borrowed the word (=canon) from English. More likely, they are both descended from the same proto-Indoeuropean language, as was William Conrad.



Welcome Beck123. Good to see you on this site. Hope you enjoy it.
_________________________
----please, draw me a sheep----

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Jackie 
Forum Stats
8738 Members
16 Forums
13806 Topics
215131 Posts

Max Online: 3341 @ 12/09/11 02:15 PM
Newest Members
KatieC, ashishsum, ackcat, mayne, Yesurbius
8738 Registered Users
Who's Online
1 registered (wofahulicodoc), 26 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters (30 Days)
endymion6 83
LukeJavan8 82
wofahulicodoc 67
A C Bowden 38
Tromboniator 4
May 4
FoFong 3
LadyReader 2
tsuwm 1
KatieC 1
Top Posters
wwh 13858
Faldage 13803
Jackie 11609
tsuwm 10522
Buffalo Shrdlu 7210
AnnaStrophic 6511
LukeJavan8 6489
Wordwind 6296
of troy 5400
BranShea 5282

Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 2014 Wordsmith