|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
I just read the phrase "internalized male gaze" and don't get the reference. I googled it and it appears to be something related to psychology and women's studies, but I can't pin down the exact definition and origin. Can anybody help? Here's the original article. The phrase is 9 lines down in the first paragraph. http://www.slate.com/id/2221364/pagenum/2
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I take it that it refers to the idea that men MAY tend to figuratively watch themselves doing whatever, imagining how they appear to others. ("Boy, do I look good here..."; or something.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
It's used in a lot of writings on the inernet and doesn't seem to be an arbitrary grouping of words or coincidental choice, but a specific reference to something that people know from a text. Like "conspicuous consumption" or "an infinite number of monkeys typing."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
On entering "internalized' in Google search a whole range of internalized somewhats jump up. Among others: internalized *homophobia, *stigma of mental illness, *racism, *oppression, *shame scale*Internalized male gaze, maybe it's better for men to keep their gaze healthily externalized. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,916 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,916 Likes: 2 |
What!
and get a slap in the face!
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Well, right, I forgot there are places in the world where you can get killed over looking someone in the eye.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
But it's letting your gaze drop below their eyes that gets you slapped.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,916 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,916 Likes: 2 |
But it's letting your gaze drop below their eyes that gets you slapped.  tee hee
----please, draw me a sheep----
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
Okay, so this has devolved into a "pull my finger kind" of discussion. Thanks for the input "Wordsmiths." I'll ply my wares elsewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Well hi! TitoMatito, how hard have you kept on searching yourself. link link To me it looks like from some psychological trials this term has entered the fashionable scene, because you also find it in blogs a.s. Something to do with the difference in anticipation by women of the male gaze and the difference in anxiety it brings up in contrast to the anticipation from a female gaze. Well, A shred from an entry: "She might have so internalized the male gaze that she might, before she catches herself, scrutinize their appearance and calculate whether they are worthy ..." There are more terms in use that nobody really quite gets what it's all about, but as long as it doesn't show, it's allright. If you see the light and are willing to report back, much obliged. conspicuous consumption article on this one.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
Sorry, TitoM, having never heard the phrase before I got distracted.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
(Apologies if the irony wasn't evident in my last comment. Personally, I'm not a big fan of using emoticons.)
Yes, BranShea, that's the same impression that I got from perusing the web. Your conspicuous consumption link is exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for "internalized male gaze."
Being a specialized term, I suppose I'll have to join up with some psychology and feminist forums in order to get a handle on this.
Thanks for the effort everyone. If I track it down, I'll report back.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
This subject is vast and a difficult one to explain in a few sentences but I will try. This phrase springs from the fact that we live in a patriarchy, and through advertising, mass media, films, and institutions such as schools or "fashion design manufacturers" we have all, to some degree internalized "the male gaze".
Our patriarchy by terms of definition is misogynist and also happens to be racist. The male gaze is a series of reference points for straight white males that have been manipulated and sculpted using living women as their medium of art. Freud's nephew of all people, started to work with advertisers sometime in the 1930's (I believe) in order to reach the consumer's unconscious. They used female archetypes and constructed "femininity" in order to sell merchandise and these idea were then conflated with actual living people and real women.
The "male gaze" has been internalized by everyone in this patriarchy, not just women. It is the default POV for all people, all media, and all art forms- for all things created by and for the patriarchy. When something is designated as "female" or "feminine" it must be in a special category.
Much like racism was legally institutionalized in this culture until recently, the male POV is institutionalized to an over-arching degree. Some examples of institutionalized racism are segregation in the armed forces, in schools, in housing, in job opportunities, in professional sports and in miscegenation marriages. Many of these laws have been over-turned, yet our schools have never been more segregated, our housing is largely segregated and racism, like institutionalized misogyny, is still the default practice in our society, President Obama not withstanding.
The LGTBQ community is now fighting for their civil rights, much like the black community fought for theirs, however laws can be changed but people's prejudices remain.
Women serving in the armed forces in two declared wars the US is involved in are more at risk for rape and assault from their fellow soldiers than they are from any foreign enemy. These are facts, and can be checked. Feel free.
When women try to become these imaginary constructs they are filled with self-loathing when they inevitably fail. Men are trained to think that only one type of representation of women is attractive, and that above all, the most highly valued trait in a woman is her appearance. It is of utmost importance in this culture to be young, to be thin, and to be beautiful.
When a woman fails at these things, she fails at life. When she achieves these things , she is most likely to be raped, attacked or slut-shamed. (Look at some rape statistics for yourself)
I am amazed that you did not get a better answer on this site. I suggest you, and anyone else who didn't know the answer, look at Feminism 101, as useful blog for people who have never heard of the male gaze.
The male gaze actually effects you and everyone every day of your life in this country, whether you know it or not. You don't have to be female, a feminist, or aware of it for it to effect you, so isn't it better to know what is at play behind the machinations of your society?
Hope this helps. Two invaluable blogs;
-Feminism 101
-The Masculine Mystique
I Blame the Patriarchy (but this if for advanced readers)
Last edited by piewackett; 07/01/09 11:21 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
You've done your best to point out what is going on with this internalized male gaze. Thank you. But do I really miss something when I've never had to much worries about the male gaze and have enjoyed the human gaze in general? ( most of the time, not all the time)
"You don't have to be female, a feminist, or aware of it for it to effect you, so isn't it better to know what is at play behind the machinations of your society?"
Don't you think there are myriads of things at play behind and through the machinations of our society?
P.S. What's new about this awareness except for the new nomification: internalized male gaze?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
Before we get bogged down in debating the fine points of the manifesto, could I get a definition here?
Would it be: the subconscious awareness experienced by a woman who has assumed and attempts to adopt the standard of beauty which provokes the salivating, gob-smacked leer of an XY breeder?
Would that more or less be what it is?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956 |
Would it be: the subconscious awareness experienced by a woman
Internalized Male Gaze
From the article in your first post I would have thought the subconscious awareness inherent (or indoctrinated as pie suggests) in males. In short, the way a man views a female sexually.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Would it be: the subconscious awareness experienced by a woman who has assumed and attempts to adopt the standard of beauty which provokes the salivating, gob-smacked leer of an XY breeder?
There's a chance Z will comment on that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
Since you asked..
It seems to me to be more than just about sex from what PieW. says. The male point of view is the default position for society on many topics. Chick flick and chick lit are accepted as specialized genres; there are no terms for movies which appeal mainly to men. Three Stooges anyone? This implies that what men enjoy is the usual/normal while entertainment designed for women is marginalized.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
Interesting observation.
It stems from an observation that one usually qualifies a noun or noun phrase, it's usually to add information. So both chick flicks and action movies somehow depart from the prototypical motion picture. That is based on the assumption that what one is trying to do when uttering or writing something what one is up to is communication. Not only action flicks, but science fiction, horror, slasher, sports, spy, art flicks, and westerns, romantic comedies, musicals, documentaries, etc. (These are somehow all different from just the plain old movies.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
Both and prove my point. Movies designed mainly to appeal to males do not need to be so designated because the male point of view is considered the norm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
Yes, Zed you are correct. The male POV is the DEFAULT POV for all people in this patriarchy, not just for women. Oh, boy, or girl should I say, I can see this is going to be an uphill battle for others to understand.
I suggest that everyone go to a site called "The Masculine Mystique". It is written by a straight white male, just in case anyone doesn't trust my "feminine" POV. I also suggested Feminism 101, but I can tell that nobody had gone to that site from the responses.
Thank you Zed, for carefully reading my post. This is a huge subject, and difficult to explain in a few sentences.
Why I am surprised at this point in my life, that other people do not realize that we live in a hierarchical, racist patriarchy, I am not sure. For me, it is a glaringly obvious fact of life.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
The first 25 Male Privileges from a list of 56 Male Privileges, From the " The Masculine Mystique." If you won't go to the web site, I'll bring it to you. Remember, you asked!
See number 6 for the short form answer to your question. I highly recommend Feminism 101. Don't worry, you will still be male even after you go to that site.
The List of Male Privileges
1. Rape -Destroying the entire life of another human being. The evil root of all male privilege.
2. Ownership of Women's Bodies - From prostitution, to the "pro-life" movement, to the marginalization of women's self-defense, to the conservative fight against HPV vaccination, women are subject to a complete gender apartheid.
3. Prostitution - The institutionalization of rape through a global network of physical and economic violence.
4. Privilege of Violence Against Women -Men are allowed to use violence to both defend themselves and to hurt women. Women are not allowed to use violence in self-defense. When assaulted by a man, women are expected to acquiesce completely to the assault, never seek retribution, and die quietly.
5. All Women Are Sexual Prospects - All women, without exception, are part of the Sex Class ruled by men, to be subject to dehumanization and gender terrorism.
6. Male Gaze - Men's sexual perspective, embraced by society, normalizes the dehumanization of women and girls, and inoculates men from being dehumanized themselves.
7. Pornography - Men are provided with widespread access to prostitution-based propaganda that promotes their privilege to destroy the lives of women. Pornography has now spread to mainstream culture, further cementing women into the role of the Sex Class.
8. Privilege to Make the Rules - The rulers write the laws and history, and so men write laws and revise history to benefit themselves at the expense of women.
9. Men Own Religion - Men craft the majority's perception of the universe to normalize anything they do as divine and good. The lead supreme beings in the vast majority of religions are male.
10. Marriage - The purpose of marriage, as an institution, is to sanctify the sexual ownership of women by men. This has been the purpose of marriage for thousands of years, and for the vast majority marriages on Earth that purpose continues to this day.
11. Privilege to Define Everything - Men's perspectives and values are the only valid ones in society. The intentions of men's actions are more important to society than the actual effects their actions have on women. Men's ideas about women supersede women's reality. Men can declare themselves feminist when they decide to be, or even oppressed when convenient. Men's claims will be taken as fair and objective, and will remain uncontested even when they make no sense. [Thanks to Varnish Eater, acidbill]
12. Privilege to Define Women - Men are the ones who routinely analyze, define, and judge women's lives. Any discussion taken from an actual women's perspective is seen as "unorthodox". Men can define or scapegoat women however they like. From hysteria to insecurity, men can project their own worst qualities onto women and blame women for their own oppression. Women must constantly explain and defend their own thoughts and actions to men when they fail to conform to men's expectations. Even then, men can reinterpret women's explanations as they see fit. [Thanks to Varnish Eater]
13. Privilege of Not Being Judged - From not being criticized for their mistakes, to the sanctity of their personal choice, to neglecting their families, to getting away with murder, judgment is always restrained when it comes to men's actions. Men can be criminals without punishment, vicious without scorn or loss of social status, and failures without fear of rebuke.
14. Men are the Default Gender - Men are considered by society to be the default gender. Men are rarely ever targeted, stereotyped, or held liable because of their gender. This default status is the mental framework used by society to ignore male privilege and male favoritism. Men are simply seen as human. Women, on the other hand, are seen as the exception to the all the male-centric norms of society. Gender stereotypes are always present in the perception of women.
15. Privilege of Unquestioned Majority - Men are treated as if they were the only gender on the planet. Men can assume to speak for the majority, and their declarations are automatically assumed to have the backing of the majority. Despite being only half the population, men are given the overwhelming majority of resources, from medical research dollars, to media attention, to political representation. Any attempts to advocate for equal representation of women is regarded as unorthodox and exceptional.
16. Privilege of Women's Invisibility - When convenient, men can treat women as if they don't even exist. Men use this privilege to take credit for women's work, to claim opportunities and resources for themselves by ignoring competition from women, and to ensure that the murders of women remain unsolved and undocumented. Men use "gender blindness" to ignore the oppression of women altogether. Any attempt to fight the abuse and oppression of women will be ignored unless men are similarly oppressed, at which point aiding the oppressed men will get priority care.
17. Primacy of Men's Comfort - From planning family vacations to deciding what distant suburb to live in, all decisions are evaluated by men's comfort levels. Even decisions made for women's safety must not infinge upon men's comfort levels. Women must make whatever personal and financial sacrifices are necessary to meet the decisions arrived at by men. All attempts at ending the abuse and oppression of women will be vehemently opposed if they inhibit men's comfort levels in any way.
18. Freedom From Harassment - Men's bodies are not aggressively sexualized. Men can expect to not be sexually harassed, to not be concerned about phallic-looking objects, and can legally remove their shirts in public. [Thanks to Anonymous]
19. Privilege of Safe Sex - Men are the initiators of sex, and can enjoy sexual privacy and no liability for their sexual history. Even Hugh Hefner's sex is private when he wants it to be. In contrast, women are the targets of sexual advances, bear the entire burden of contraception and pregnancy, and are judged based on men's sexual perception of them. [Thanks to Anonymous]
20. Privilege to Speak - From blogging, to politics, to stand-up comedy, men have the privilege to speak publicly, with authority, and without harassment for doing so. From birth, women are taught to be deferential when men interrupt, to not interrupt while men are speaking, to accept verbal abuse without complaint, and to be quiet in general. Men expect women to listen to them at all times, even if said women are their bosses or are busy doing something else. Women's voices are dismissed as irritating, and women who speak for themselves in public, or who publicly contradict men, are met with hostility from society. [Thanks to wiggles]
21. Privilege to End Debate - Men can use their tyranny of speech to quiet everyone else.
22. Privilege of Having No Privileges - When the abuse of male privilege becomes uncomfortable for men, they can choose to be oblivious of their privilege. Men can choose to be oblivious of some or all of their privileges, as is convenient. Men can claim parity where none exists, claim oppression whenever it is useful, and deflect any resentment which might impinge upon their social status. Men can even blame women for the harms they suffer under male privilege. [Thanks to Varnish Eater, acidbill]
23. Privilege of Relative Safety - Men don't live their entire lives in fear. There is no gender terrorism for men. Men can risk dropping their guard, or being alone. [Thanks to Anonymous]
24. The Inviolate Male Body - A man's body is his castle. Men enjoy the sovereignty of self. They can expect to not be physically violated when attacked.
25. Privilege of Space - All spaces are by default men's spaces. Men are allowed men-only spaces without complaint, and can expect entry into almost all women-only spaces.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
at the risk of violating nos. 8, 11, 13, 17, 20 and 21 (at a minimum); I must say that this thread has definitely gone political.
-ron obvious
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
Yes, how hard was this to answer? Wikipedia has an article, and I tried to answer, as well as suggest a few well chosen, excellent blogs, but I don't think he really wants to know the answer!
I fixed that by posting from "The Masculine Mystique" and excellent and thoroughly researched blog that is written, (gasp!) by a MAN. Maybe he will read that, as anything with the word feminism in the title is apparently instant death to even "gaze" at, internalized male gaze or not.
Please pardon my jaded sense of humor. "I'm being as nice as I can." Elvis Costello.
This is just a great lyric, the fact that he wrote it adds nothing to this discussion!
Excellent links, and thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
Hah! Great point Zed.
Privilege 14 in a list of 56 Male Privileges that everyone takes for granted in a patriarchy, specifically America's.
14. Men are the Default Gender - Men are considered by society to be the default gender. Men are rarely ever targeted, stereotyped, or held liable because of their gender. This default status is the mental framework used by society to ignore male privilege and male favoritism. Men are simply seen as human. Women, on the other hand, are seen as the exception to the all the male-centric norms of society. Gender stereotypes are always present in the perception of women.
From "The Masuline Mystique."
"Movies?" Yup.
Everything? Yup.
This is just dawning on these "Wordsmiths" now? We are in just as much trouble as I thought.
Has anyone noticed that things aren't going so well in this unsustainable, violent insane society?
Thank you for your thoughts, Zed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
Just answering a question that was asked. These are for you, as well as the ones you named. From "The Masculine Mystique."
# Internet Presence - Even though more people use the web to buy greeting cards than porn, everyone assumes that the primary use of the web is pornography. The Internet has been claimed by popular culture to be a giant men's club.
# Privilege of Ownership - Men can take the best of anything that is available, even if it belongs to someone else. Women who complain are castigated for being sensitive or "petty". Plagarism laws protect men's work more than women's work. When a man finds something for the first time, he can lay claim to "first discovering" it with little fear of correction. [Thanks to Lilithc]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
Actually, piewackett, I did read Feminism 101 and it bored me. Thus, the no comment.
If you had just put up number 6 in the first place, everything would have been alright.
You see, when someone tosses out a request for a simple definition and you reply with an approximately 3000 word incoherent treatise, well, you can't seriously expect someone to just voluntarily leap into that particular blast furnace.
Now, if I were searching for feminine or feminist views --as I sometimes do-- that would have been more than appropriate. Even generous, I daresay. (Though, I probably wouldn't have come to Wordsmith to find that.)
In essence, the strawman that you've tried to prop up here isn't buying any bayonets today. I wish you luck in your endeavours to find a villain under every rock.
Now, I think I'll watch a little porno before turning in for the night. Cheers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Both and prove my point. Movies designed mainly to appeal to males do not need to be so designated because the male point of view is considered the norm. Romantic comedies can also be called chick flicks, Action films can also be called guy flicks. The most effective phrase in maintaining the patriarchy is "Wait till your father comes home."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I think for the moment I'll just watch and see.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
How many families still have fathers? Good fathers I mean.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Would it be: the subconscious awareness experienced by a woman who has assumed and attempts to adopt the standard of beauty which provokes the salivating, gob-smacked leer of an XY breeder? Getting back to this proposed definition (which might be close to what this gaze is all about) I cannot but assume that the definition could easily be mirrored by an internalized female gaze. "the subconcious awareness expierenced by a man who attempts to adopt to the standard of (whatever makes a man atractive; we all know that beauty for women and for men is just only part of the game) which provoques the attention of a woman". BTW, 'male breeder' is that correct? Doesn't the female do the breeding while the male is just the 'provider'?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
Last I checked, it takes two to breed. But maybe things are starting to turn around.
"A man falls in love through his eyes, a woman through her ears." Woodrow Wyatt
In my experience, perhaps it's true that sexually successful women attempt to LOOK LIKE what men find attractive; and while many modern men might do the vice versa (i.e. metrosexuality), I think that men more often than not feel that they must BE what a woman wants.
Confident, successful, clever, witty, talented, these are things that women look for in a man more than the visual ... although the right shoes seem to be rather important.
I'll add anecdotally that I once adopted the caring, sensitive attitude of an enlightened man. And while I made a lot of friends in that period, I never got laid. All my newfound female friends kept running away with machos. Go figure. Now that I'm a pig again, I can hardly get any privacy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
I see, I definitely was mistaken.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
About breeding or something more arcane?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Not much. I was under the impression that you were just tossing out a request for a simple definition.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
Well, I was. And I also tried to keep it on topic. Then the definition came out buried in The List of Male Priveleges: "6. Male Gaze - Men's sexual perspective, embraced by society, normalizes ..."
After that, I decided to respond to comments such as "but I don't think he really wants to know the answer!... If he would only look ..." etc. You know, participate in the discussion that everybody else was having.
Hope I haven't caused any offense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 956 |
I saw no reason to be offended so none taken.
I always try to interpret writing from the writers point of view but in doing so I inflict my interpretation onto the other persons writing. I will henceforth call this my 'External Male Gaze'.But hey, writing is such a fickle medium anyways.
6. Male Gaze - Men's sexual perspective
Thats what I said based on the context of the original passage.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
No. To boast is not to offend. I don't think this thread has gone political, but it has ended up in the same unsolved sort of confusion. I will stick to my initial internalized human gaze and work on that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Last edited by wsieber; 07/03/09 01:08 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
No intentions to boast, BranShea. Just offering empirical support for a personal observation. And, yes, I agree, this topic has spun out of control. But at least the question got answered. Eventually.
Jargon. Yep.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
gob-smacked I knew you were a Brit-speaker! :-)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
Sort of. I'm a Virginia boy who's lived overseas for 15 years. A jack of all dialects, master of none.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
hmmm?
"Gob-smacked" pronounced with a Virginia accent. Fascinating thought.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
Yo, Dewd-O. Listen up.
"Actually, piewackett, I did read Feminism 101 and it bored me. Thus, the no comment."
Bored? Of course you were. The way the entrenched rich are bored when the perennially poor protest about being poor.
The way white people who are never discriminated against are bored by black people who protest discrimination.
To recap Mac-O here's, what happened. You asked a supremely ignorant question on a website not entitled Idiot’s De-Lite. I answered you, warning that the subject was a vast one, and not a simple one.
“If you had just put up number 6 in the first place, everything would have been alright.”
Maybe your reading comprehension skills are not up to par. It is not a simple subject, but apparently there are simple minds
”You see, when someone tosses out a request for a simple definition and you reply with an approximately 3000 word incoherent treatise."
Once again Bub-O , that was from the Masculine Mystique, I didn’t write it. As for the list of male privileges being incoherent- perhaps to you they are. I understand them well.
The oppressed always understands their oppressor better than the oppressor understands themselves. S-u-r-v-i-v-a-l.
Was I not Y2K patriarchal patty-cake compliant for your ego stroking needs? Tough.
You posted this on 6/29
“Being a specialized term, I suppose I'll have to join up with some psychology and feminist forums in order to get a handle on this.”
THEN you posted this on 7/2
“Now, if I were searching for feminine or feminist views --as I sometimes do-- that would have been more than appropriate. Even generous, I daresay. (Though, I probably wouldn't have come to Wordsmith to find that.)”
For your edification, Bucko- Feminist and feminine are not interchangeable terms.
Typical male mind! You cannot help but change it every two seconds; must be your hormones controlling your little head and your big head, or are they one in the same?
You ask about a political/sociological term and complain when you get a political/sociological answer.
“Now, I think I'll watch a little porno before turning in for the night. Cheers.”
Then-
“Hope I haven't caused any offense.”
Liar! Hypocrite! Repugnicant! J’accuse!
Of course you meant to offend. There are real rewards for complying with the patriarchy. If other women or even (heaven forbid men) won’t call you out on this, it doesn’t mean you aren’t a total smeghead. You are.
“Now that I'm a pig again, I can hardly get any privacy.”
Are you trying to say you once had kinda sorta maybe had a moral compass, but it was so gosh darn hard to be an individual, so you caved and conformed to behaviors you knew to be wrong and repulsive? Poor wittle white dewd! O, the sufferings of the menz! When will it end?
Please do stop comparing yourself to pigs, thus insulting my porcine friends. They are intelligent, sensitive creatures and only wallow in their own waste when forced to. You do it voluntarily.
So, in conclusion, my diminished capacity Friend-O,
As a member of a group who oppresses (I am white) I am hyper- aware of my privilege. I have had job opportunities, housing opportunities and a multitude of benefits from my “white passport" skin. This fact disgusts me.
If I had asked an African -American person to explain to me a racist term I did not understand and they then attempted as best they could to answer me, here is what I would not do.
I would not ignore them, then dismiss them, tell then I am bored, and then end the conversation with a “joke” using the N-Word as a punch line.
But that’s me. It ain’t you, is it?
That’s exactly what you did Tom-O, Harry-O, and above all Dick-O.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
J Krishnamurti
Last edited by piewackett; 07/11/09 12:30 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
newbie
|
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 27 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
piewackett, your latest post above has gone way beyond the boundaries of what we do here, which is discuss language while not acting ugly towards one another. This forum is absolutely NOT for personal-agenda rants not related to language. Please consider this a warning.
Tito--glad you weren't offended, sir--thank you! [bow]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 8 |
"[-] What are the rules of conduct for the forum?
Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it."
I was searching for rules of conduct I may have missed. This is all I could find. Can you direct me to the other rules, if there are any, and to an explanation of the warning system please?
I also just figured out that your name is in a different color, and that this is significant.
It has been my experience that moderator or administrator usually appears under the said person's screen-name, but if this is Wordsmith's design I certainly cannot hold you accountable for that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Just FTR, "chick flick" gets 2.99Mghits and "guy flick" gets 1.4Mghits. This might be because there are twice as many movies explicitly aimed at women than at men and not because unbranded movies are assumed to be aimed at males.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1 |
Internalized male gaze is when a woman performs male gaze.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,326
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
704
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
