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#181328 12/30/08 05:27 PM
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zmjezhd Offline OP
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There are three terms in French, aucun 'none', personne 'nobody', and rien 'nothing', which started out from Latin and into Old French as positive (< Old French alques 'something' < Latin aliquid 'something' + un 'one', persona 'mask, part; person', and rem, the acc. of res, 'thing') but today are negative in meaning; cf. Old French les riens que j'aime 'the things which I like'. They seem to have gone from positive to negative on account of the formation of the negative in French: ne + V + pas (< Latin passus 'step', actually that's another one, pas can be used in the meaning 'not'), where pas strengthens the negative force of the sentence; cf. English I don't care one bit.


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BALLADE DES CONTRE-VÉRITÉS

Il n est soin que quant on a faim
Ne service que d'ennemi,
Ne mâcher qu' un botel de fain* *foin
Ne fort guet que d'homme endormi,
Ne clemence que felonie,
N'assurance que de peureux,
Ne foi que d'homme qui renie,
Ne bien conseillé qu'amoureaux.

Il n'est engendrement qu'en boin* *bain
Ne bon bruit* que d'homme banni, *bon renom
Ne ris qu'après un coup de poin,
Ne lots de dettes mettre en ni* * nier ses dettes
Ne vraie amours qu'en flatterie,

and so on ...

François Villon born 1431

I have this little book 'Oeuvres' de François Villon.
It contains ballads and poems. I find them difficult to read.
With the negative form he only uses 'ne' or 'ne que' or 'que...ne'.
The form (word) 'pas' or 'ne... pas' is totally absent.

Don't know what to make of it.


Last edited by BranShea; 12/30/08 09:31 PM.
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I taught French in High School, but it has been a couple of
decades ago, and I learned it here, in the Great Plains where
there is no opportunity to speak it except with other teachers
or students.
I find that poem very difficult. Yet I appreciate your
Putting it on the thread, Bran, I am going to work at it.
I doubt a good translation will result, however. I see
the problem with the negatives (ne..rien, ne...jamais,etc.)
Thanks.


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zmjezhd Offline OP
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Don't know what to make of it.

François Villon (1431-63) wrote in Middle French (roughly 1350 to 1600). It is different from Modern French. Compare the following (in Middle English) from a near contemporary of Villon, William Caxton:

There is a booke, Jacob de Cessoles,
Of the ordre of Prechours, made, a worthy man,

That the Chesse moralisede clepede is,
In whiche I purpose eke to labour ywis
And here and there, as that my litelle witte
Afforthe may, I thynke translate it.

And al be it that in that place square
Of the lystes, I meane the eschekere,
A man may learn to be wise and ware;
I that have avanturede many a yere,
My witte therein is but litelle the nere,
Save that somewhat I know a Kynges draught,
Of other draughts lernede have I naught.

It would be even harder to understand if you heard it rather than read it.


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Pffffffffff... it would need a lot of*****'s here too.

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Old French les riens que j'aime 'the things which I like'. They seem to have gone from positive to negative on account of the formation of the negative in French

I think a better translation would be, "the inconsequential things that I like". They are using the word "rien" not as a positive, but to describe something that is trivial but liked anyway.

In Québec, "c'est un petit rien" (it's a little nothing) is a commonly used expression when talking about something you give that is appreciated but that is not worth a lot of money.

A "petit rien" always brings a smile to your face - especially if happens to be a chocolate éclair. HA!

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Ah, belMarduk, yes, the memorable chocolate éclair the size of a French canapé,/ tsuwms giantic picture/, not exactly un petit rien it was.

The trivial things I like then.

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Originally Posted By: belMarduk
Old French les riens que j'aime 'the things which I like'. They seem to have gone from positive to negative on account of the formation of the negative in French

Quote:
I think a better translation would be, "the inconsequential things that I like". They are using the word "rien" not as a positive, but to describe something that is trivial but liked anyway.

In Québec, "c'est un petit rien" (it's a little nothing) is a commonly used expression when talking about something you give that is appreciated but that is not worth a lot of money.



I remeber the eclairs in Quebec. UMMMM

A "petit rien" always brings a smile to your face - especially if happens to be a chocolate éclair. HA!



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