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Just in time to wish you all joyful days in whichever way. Good wishes to those who are present and to those who must be somewhere, I hope doing and being well.
My computer is on repairs trip.
My son's is rarely accessible. Merry Christmas!TO TEDS AND MILO'S AND ANNA'S AND ANU'S AND HYDRA'S AND BAWDY BELMARDUKS AND WORDWINDS AND.............so many.
(All I want for Christmas is my front door blocked with snow)
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To you,BranShea, a very Merry Christmas as well. I see from
noradsanta.org that the jolly ole fellow is leaving Europe now
and heading west. I wish you lots of snow. And if there were
a way to send all that is in my yard I would gladly do so.
Blessings for Christmas to you and your family.
Last edited by LukeJavan8; 12/24/08 10:58 PM.
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Done stuffing stockings... going off to bed.... god bless :0)
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The old fellow is not really generally regocnized here and we stuff no stockings at Christmas. Thanks for the generous gift of snow. Nice tree, twosleepy ! Most certainly considering the after 2.00 AM.
Have a jolly day.
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The old fellow is not really generally regocnized here and we stuff no stockings at Christmas. Thanks for the generous gift of snow. Nice tree, twosleepy ! Most certainly considering the after 2.00 AM.
Have a jolly day. Interesting,Bran. Isn't their a Kris Kringle character in Germany? and Father Christmas in UK. You're being betwen I 'd think some sort of character would exist. He's even in Japan now. Oh, yes, I'd give you the ice under the snow too. I see lots of people out with ice-breakers trying to get it off the cement. I just put down some chemical, which probably ruins the environment (despite its disclaimer) and hope someone does not take a tumble.
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The old fellow is not really generally regocnized here and we stuff no stockings at Christmas. Thanks for the generous gift of snow. Nice tree, twosleepy ! Most certainly considering the after 2.00 AM.
Have a jolly day. Interesting,Bran. Isn't their a Kris Kringle character in Germany? and Father Christmas in UK. You're being betwen I 'd think some sort of character would exist. He's even in Japan now. Oh, yes, I'd give you the ice under the snow too. I see lots of people out with ice-breakers trying to get it off the cement. I just put down some chemical, which probably ruins the environment (despite its disclaimer) and hope someone does not take a tumble. In Germany traditionally Father Christmas brings sweets on December 6 and "The Christ Child" brings the presents on Christmas Eve. But I suspect that nowadays perhaps they've given in to American cultural imperialism like everyone else, for whom the Coca-Cola version of Santa invented ca 1930 is the central act at Christmas.
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And in Asian nations where the Saint Nicholas is not even part
of their culture,it is rightly called
American Cultural Imperialism: the almight Dollar controls
everything. (actually the dollar is the central act of Christmas,
in my opinion.)
Last edited by LukeJavan8; 12/26/08 04:36 PM.
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Dec. 6 corresponds with our celebration of St.Nicolaas. On the evening of Dec.5 we celebrate this family-friends feast by unwrapping the gifts from st. Nicolas and Black Peter (his aid).
For kids up to 7 / 8 present the bagful of gifts is thrown over the threshold by a unnoticed temporary absentee of the gathered group or by one of the neighbours willing to do this.
Families with children over 8 fun give eachother gifts in diguised forms: the "surprise", pronounced the French way. This surprise should be a comment on actualities or merits or bad habits of the one who recieves the gift.
This fun side used to prevail over the importance of the present, but alas, money value is taking over everywhere.
There has been a political fight over whether ( fake) Black Peter should change color for reasons of discrimination. Fortunately this has passed and now real blacks join the Black Peter crowd (two or three weeks before Dec.5 many help-St. Nicolasses and Black Peters tour the country, scaring the 'bad' and cheering the 'good' children.
Why it is that in a predominantly Protestant country a Catholic Martyr has become the Saint of the season's gifts party no one really knows for sure. There is a famous Jan Steen ( 17th C.) painting showing the 'Sint Nikolaas avond' complete with a crying boy who got no present because he had not been good during the year.
There has been some competition between SantaClaus and Sinterklaas, but for now Sinterklaas still holds the lead. I know no of no other European country where Sinterklaas is really celebrated. (?)
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I know no of no other European country where Sinterklaas is really celebrated. (?)Well, Sinterklaas seems to be confined to Netherlands and Flanders (Belgium). But other countries do celebrate feasts involving St Nicholas ( link).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Oh, well thank you Jim, for this wonderful update on old oude Klaas.
Even in Armenia! What a widespread traditon it then is! I guess it just stands out more distinctly in Holland. It really is THE big thing. Thanks for all the interesting details and Christmas time is not yet over here. No presents, but we always have a double holy free day. So Merry Christmas to you.
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So Merry Christmas to you.And a Happy Boxing Day to you. The Mexicans (and other Latin Americans) do their gift-giving on January 6th, Epiphany, el Día de los Tres Reyes, or the Twelfth Day of Christmas ( link). The relics of the Magi are in a lovely golden reliquary in the cathedral of Cologne ( link). The relics were presented to the Archbishop of Cologne by Friedrich Barbarossa in the 12th century and have been a tourist attraction since. And that's why the city escutcheon has three crowns on it. For Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar. If you ever find yourself in Kölle om Ring, standing in front of the Dom, be sure two visit two nearby musts: the Römisch-Germanisches Museum (built over the site of a Roman villa with a wonderful mosaic of Dionysus, link) and the Cölner Hofbräu Früh for a Kölsch and a halver Hahn ( link).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Bran
you mention Holland being a predominantly Protestant country.
True enough. But prior to Martin Luther only 500 years ago +/-
was it not Catholic Christian, like the rest of Europe? And
the St. Nicholas story goes back to St. Nicholas, Bishop of
Myra in the early centuries with the legends he performed with
gifts in shoes, etc.
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Happy Boxing day to our neighbors to the North in Canada, as
well. The Magi in Cologne, their relics, that is, is truly
resplendant.
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a predominantly Protestant countryAccording to the CIA World Factbook (2006, link), the religious breakdown for the Netherlands is: Roman Catholic 30% Dutch Reformed 11% Calvinist 6% other Protestant 3% Muslim 5.8% other 2.2% none 42% So, it looks like the atheists have the majority, followed by Roman Catholics, and then Protestants.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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And would it not be interesting to see how many of the
persons quoted in your statistics participate in the
celebration Bran tells us about?
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And in Asian nations where the Saint Nicholas is not even part
of their culture,it is rightly called
American Cultural Imperialism: the almight Dollar controls
everything. (actually the dollar is the central act of Christmas,
in my opinion.)
That, and the grand tradition of the Family Argument. Some familes travel hundreds of miles at Christmas to get together for a good one of those!
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a predominantly Protestant countryAccording to the CIA World Factbook (2006, link), the religious breakdown for the Netherlands is: Roman Catholic 30% Dutch Reformed 11% Calvinist 6% other Protestant 3% Muslim 5.8% other 2.2% none 42% So, it looks like the atheists have the majority, followed by Roman Catholics, and then Protestants. Putting "no religion" on a census form isn't a declaration of Atheism. It represents a diverse bunch of people, including: - true Atheists - Agnostics - members of sects and cults, and even some mainstream Christians who don't like the word 'religion' to describe their views - people who believe in God (or something) but don't go to church, synagogue, mosque, etc or consider themselves 'religious' - people who left the question blank The number of true atheists in the world is probably less than ten percent of the population, even in the most secular countries of Europe.
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Why it is that in a predominantly Protestant country a Catholic Martyr has become the Saint of the season's gifts party no one really knows for sure. Nicolas of Myra (going from memory here, as usual can't be bothered looking it up) was not just a Catholic saint, since he was around before the Catholics and Orthodx split. He was a 4th century Eastern bishop in what we now call Turkey around whom several myths and legends have grown up. On top of the early Eastern legends, Europeans later added random bits of Nordic and Germanic elements to his story, so that he now lives at the north pole, etc. Originally his robes and hat were those of a bishop, and until the late 19th and early 20th century he was depicted as a thin gaunt man with a long beard in rather dull coloured flowing robes. Somewhere along the line Europeans were kind enough to give him a fur collar and cuffs and fur lined hat or hood for the harsh European winter. And finally the Coca Cola company for an advertising campaign in the 1930s gave him the red and white (guess why???) pyjamas we are now used to seeing him wear.
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Putting "no religion" on a census form isn't a declaration of Atheism.
Too true. Many of them could be Pastafarians. Followers of the True Religion. Or maybe even Sub-Genius types.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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And finally the Coca Cola company for an advertising campaign in the 1930s gave him the red and white (guess why???) pyjamas we are now used to seeing him wear. The whack-a-doodlest idea I've heard is that it's the color of amanita muscaria mushrooms that the Lapp shamans consumed (second hand by drinking the urine of the reindeer they fed the mushrooms to) to go on their shamanistic flights. They left and returned by flying through the smoke holes of their tents, hence Santa's entry through the chimney.
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And finally the Coca Cola company for an advertising campaign in the 1930s gave him the red and white (guess why???) pyjamas we are now used to seeing him wear. The whack-a-doodlest idea I've heard is that it's the color of amanita muscaria mushrooms that the Lapp shamans consumed (second hand by drinking the urine of the reindeer they fed the mushrooms to) to go on their shamanistic flights. They left and returned by flying through the smoke holes of their tents, hence Santa's entry through the chimney. Aww, shucks, y'all made that'n up y'self faldo! 
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The whack-a-doodlest idea I've heardI am an aficionado of krank-kook-ism, and the work of one John Allegro yclept The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (1970) is one of the doodly-whackiest ( link). It makes a great reading companion to the just as pseudo-scholarly, though slightlyless whacky, and still controversial Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality (1968) of R Gordon Wasson ( link). Allegro alleged that Jesus was actually a mushroom. (and he has a ton of Sumerian, Akkadian, and Hebraic etymologies to prove all sorts of other things; it helps that mushrooms tend to be phallic shaped. Wasson claimed that Amanita muscaria was the Vedic soma. I don't remember Faldo's offered Santa Claus theory having been mentioned by either author, but it is possible, both myco-amateurs being so enormously fecund with factoids and theories. Oh, the shamans, the reindeer urine, the 'shrooms.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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And visions of sugar plums.
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Poor Nicholas of Myra, in what is now Turkey. A 1930's American
advertising campaign to drinking reindeer urine. Oh how our
discussions travel, more so that the ole' elf hisself,
to say nothing of sugar plums or 'shrooms.
Last edited by LukeJavan8; 12/28/08 12:48 AM.
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Does Holland have a church tax like Germany? That might be a reason for so many declared atheists. Happy happy to you, too, Bran, and it's nice to see a picture of youfor a change! 
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No church tax that I know of. I remember black (!) velvet saggy bags on top of a stick that where passed along the bench rows where we put in nickles and dimes, called "collecte". Of course the rich people put in old useless buttons . (we children made that up in our home made radio plays) For the rest you've all worked it out and I've made the virtual trip to Köln. Christmas has always been celebrated as a family feast, only without Santa C and presents, but always with the tree and true candles up to the mid-sixtees. In spite of statistics and mushrooms, the country's culture has been till this day dominated by Calvinistic morals since the end of the spanish reign and religious civil war's ending in the beginning of the 17th century. (but see Pook, globbelism has changed a lot on the surface) (thanks for all the links, I can't do much searching; as long as I don't have my own computer back I 'm just a wandering visitor).
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Why might a Roman Catholic martyr be celebrated in a predominately protestant country at Christmas time? May I suggest the following for consideration. Assuming that the protestant country referred to is the Netherlands, one of the reasons has to do with Reformation history and the formation of the various protestant churches. What must be realized is that the Reformation did not consist of an absolute and total repudiation of Christianity before the 16th Century. The Reformed or Calvinistic Reformation was a restoration movement that intended to restore Christianity to its Biblical roots in part by removing the unbiblical accretions instituted by Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthdoxy. Some and even much of pre-16th Century Christianity was retained by Protestantism. I was going to write more on differences within Protestantism to explain the existence of differing practices and traditions connected with Christmas -- but will not for now.
Vaughn Hathaway
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And what could better represent the restoration of Christianity to its Biblical roots than the greed and spending frenzy personified by the ghost of a Roman Catholic martyr?
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Christmas was hardly celebrated at all in Scotland until the 1950s when English TV introduced it to the dour northerners. Even today some exclusive Presbyterian sects don't acknowlege it as a valid expression of Christian celebration.
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The Pook is correct. The addition of Christmas in the 1930s to the annual calendar of the Presbyterian Church in the United States (the Southern Presbyterian Church), which merged with the Presbyterian Church in the USA (the Northern Presbyterian Church) in the early 1980s, was labeled by conservatives, who eventually founded the Presbyterian Church in America in the 1970s, as a move away from biblical Christianity. The commercialization of Christmas is not a fruit of Christianity. The additional item that I chose not to include in my first post is what separates strictly Reformed Christian denominations, such as the Pook referenced, from other Protestant denominations, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. It is a doctrine called the Regulative Principle of Worship and is based on an interpretation of the Second Commandment found in Exodus 20:4-6. Simply stated the RPW limits acceptable Christian worship and celebrations to those that are specifically indicated in the Bible. Since Christmas is not one such, it has not been observed by many Reformed (i.e., Presbyterian) Christians. Unfortunately, many Protestant Christians do observe Christmas; but to their credit decry the commercialization of the corporate world. Christians this side of heaven are not perfect. They are all sinners.
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Simply stated the RPW limits acceptable Christian worship and celebrations to those that are specifically indicated in the Bible. And that would be just the traditional Jewish holidays except Hanukkah?
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No. Sunday (celebrating the Resurrection) as for the day of worship and the observation of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper (Communion or Eucharist) including the several elements of worship such as prayer, singing of praise, reading and preaching the Word (the Scriptures or the Bible). Christians do not observe the Old Testament feasts such as the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) or Passover except as their implications are assimilated into the Lord's Supper for example. Jesus, who Christians believe to be the Second Person of the Godhead, instituted the Lord's Supper which was to be and is observed in these New Testament times with elements of Passover.
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Ah. I wasn't aware that they were actually stipulated as holidays. Of course, I'm only going by hearsay on the biblical stipulation of the Jewish holidays.
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The regulative principle is often misunderstood. It's true generally speaking that Anglican and Lutheran denominations work on the principle of if it's not prohibited by the bible it's allowable while the Reformed tradition says if it's not in the bible it's not allowed. However, Presbyterians distinguish between matters of content or theological substance and matters of form in worship. The latter are not so important. Moreover, the principle was meant to exclude things like Roman Catholic saints days and Mariolatry, etc. Conservative Presbyterians have mounted good cases within their own tradition's beliefs for celebrating Christmas, and most Presbyterians do so. Christmas is celebrating the birth of the Saviour and that is certainly in Scripture. A related irony is that many who hold strictly to the regulative principle (even some who don't like Christmas) often celebrate Reformation Sunday. But this is all getting a bit theological and drifting into areas that are verboten by the no religion thread police... 
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And the 12 days of Christmas??
Very interesting topic above, even if verboten by the
police.
Christmas trees on the curb for trash on 26 December, whereas
that is only the 2nd day of Christmas with the 12th being
the day the Magi appeared in the reckoning of the Church
way long before the Reformation.
The 12 days of Christmas are after the Christmas day itself, up
to Epiphany: day 12.
Last edited by LukeJavan8; 01/09/09 06:33 PM.
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Simply stated the RPW limits acceptable Christian worship and celebrations to those that are specifically indicated in the Bible. And that would be just the traditional Jewish holidays except Hanukkah? And Hanukkah is found in the Bible, the Bible still used by Catholics and Orthodox, before Luther threw out the Books of Macabbees. This is 2000 years vs. the 500 since the Reformation.
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And Hanukkah is found in the Bible, the Bible still used by Catholics and Orthodox,
before Luther threw out the Books of Macabbees. This is 2000 years vs. the 500 since
the Reformation.
Way I heard it, and as I said in a later post I only have it by hearsay, that while the events around which Hanukkah is based might be found in the Bible, Hanukkah itself is not a holiday mandated by God as the other Jewish holidays are. Similarly, the events around which the major Christian holidays are based, to my knowledge, are not mandated by God as holidays. I can see, for example, the Eucharist as a ritual but not the celebration of Maundy Thursday as a holiday. While the date of the Resurrection can be calculated based on the dates of Passover I don't see anything that states it should be celebrated as a holiday. Perhaps, PastorVon, if he isn't ignoring me, could enlighten me. The dating of the Nativity is, of course, quite controversial. I've heard that the fact that the shepherds were tending there flocks means that it was in the spring and James Tabor, the author of The Jesus Dynasty, has said that he thinks it was in September, IIRC.
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What Faldo says is correct, about Hannukah (however it's spelt) and the various Christian feasts he mentions. Although there is some implied scriptural mandate for the celebration of Easter, if not for an annual date, at least for celebrating it every Sunday, the day Jesus rose - the early church met specially on that day from the start for that reason.
Regarding Luke's statement about the extra books of the Old Testament, it's not as simple as that. It was not Luther who "threw out" the seven inter-testamental writings (and additions to two other books) that had always been accepted as scripture up to that point. That's historically incorrect.
First, they were not always accepted by everyone. The Jews, at the council of Jamnia in ca 80AD failed to include them in their Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures. I don't believe any of them are among the books or portions of books found in the Dead Sea Scrolls either. In the 4th century, several prominent Church Fathers declared them non-Canonical and not authoritative, only to be read for edification. Augustine (Luther's favourite father!) accepted them, Jerome did not. Various figures throughout history up to the Reformation continued to express doubts about them. There were other books, too, such as 1 & 2 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh, that were not accepted by Rome but were accepted by parts of the Eastern Orthodox church (called the Anagignoskomena). And there are yet other ones that practically nobody accepts.
Second, these extra books (Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees, and the additions to Daniel and Esther) were only finally definitively and officially accepted as scripture by the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in 1561, AFTER the Reformation. That is why they are sometimes referred to by Rome as the 'Deutero-Canonical' books, because they were part of a "second" canoning process by the Roman Church, having not been part of the canon prior to that.
So the idea that the "Protestant" Old Testament Canon (which is also the Jewish one!) is only 500 years old versus a Catholic Canon which is four times more ancient, is actually an historical fallacy. The Roman Canon is some 50 years later than Luther, not 1500 years earlier!
Last edited by The Pook; 01/10/09 04:12 AM.
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Simply stated the RPW limits acceptable Christian worship and celebrations to those that are specifically indicated in the Bible. And that would be just the traditional Jewish holidays except Hanukkah? And Hanukkah is found in the Bible, the Bible still used by Catholics and Orthodox, before Luther threw out the Books of Macabbees. This is 2000 years vs. the 500 since the Reformation. It would be erroneous to blame Luther for "throwing out" the Books of Macabbees, because the Deuterocanonical books were never universally accepted by the Church, whether Eastern or Western, on the same level as the Canonical books. Even Jerome who first translated them questioned their authenticity. But, even if it were conceded that the Books of Macabbees were to be included in the list of canonical books, it would be erroneous to include Hannakuh as a mandated feast for two reasons: 1) you would have to prove that the references to Hannakuh were not purely narrative; and 2) that any subsequent observation of Hannakuh was not abrogated by the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ as explicated by the Epistle to the Hebrews. Hebrews very clearly demonstrates that even those Jewish feasts that were mandated before the coming of Jesus Christ were superseded by the sacrificial work of Christ and are no longer to be observed. Just because something is found in the Bible does not make it into something to be observed.
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1) you would have to prove that the references to Hannakuh were not purely narrative; My comment was that Hanukkah wasn't a mandated feast. 2) that any subsequent observation of Hannakuh was not abrogated by the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ as explicated by the Epistle to the Hebrews. Do we know who wrote Hebrews? Is that one that biblical scholars are pretty sure was written by Paul?
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I have the fallacy of being rather black and white. I am not blaming Luther, but rather
saying that is probably a point when they disappeared pretty much for good from the
Protestant Bible, Luther or no. They are called Deuteroncanonical, meaning "secondary"
canonical, never completely accepted, but secondary, hence the 'deutero'.
My comment is that Hannukah's source is in Macabbees.
That is the only point I was trying to make, and some people consider Macabbes as Scripture.
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The point with Hanukkah is that, while being recorded in some versions of the Bible, it is not mandated as a holiday. Lots of things were recorded in the Bible that aren't holidays. For example, there's no holiday that I know of celebrating the Baptism of Jesus by John.
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some versions of the BibleI have always been fascinated by the issue of the canonicity of the books that make up the Tenakh/Old Testament and the New Testament. For example, one book, that was really quite popular and cited as scripture by Tertullian was the Shepherd of Hermas (in English and Greek). One book which nearly did not make it into the New Testament was the Book of Revelation (as well as some of the Epistles).
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The point with Hanukkah is that, while being recorded in some versions of the Bible, it is not mandated as a holiday. Lots of things were recorded in the Bible that aren't holidays. For example, there's no holiday that I know of celebrating the Baptism of Jesus by John. Unless I misunderstand you, there are some denominations that celebrate the Baptism of Jesus by John as a holy day, but not a holiday as you mention.
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Unless I misunderstand you, there are some denominations that celebrate the Baptism of
Jesus by John as a holy day, but not a holiday as you mention.
That may be. I just said that I didn't know of any. There's a lot of things I don't know, some of which I know I don't know and some of which I don't know I don't know. And a whole lot that I don't even know it's possible not to know. Do you know on what date the Baptism is celebrated?
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Unless I misunderstand you, there are some denominations that celebrate the Baptism of
Jesus by John as a holy day, but not a holiday as you mention.
That may be. I just said that I didn't know of any. There's a lot of things I don't know, some of which I know I don't know and some of which I don't know I don't know. And a whole lot that I don't even know it's possible not to know. Do you know on what date the Baptism is celebrated? This really made me laugh. It fits me to a T. There is so much I don't know and want to know. Thanks for the laugh I have a friend who is a Roman priest, Catholic, I mean by Roman. I called him and he told me the feast of the Baptism of the Lord by John/Baptist is Today: 11 January. It occurs on the Sunday after the Epiphany which is celebrated by Roman Catholics on January 6. Yet in states west of central standard time it is on the following or previous Sunday. Go figure. I can't. This discussion sure makes me wonder why any religion knows what is going on. The basic Scripture is so "convoluted", to use a term. Some religions have some books in the Bible, other's don't - no wonder they cannot get together and just seem to keep splitting further. One wonders what Christ would say, to say nothing of Moses. Anyhow, thanks for the chuckle.
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Sorry to drop in on this serious conversation but the add under it caught my less serious eye:
Flawless Pearl Jewelry For Christmas
Make her remember this holiday with our pearls. Money back guarantee. ( pearls for free?)
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Sorry to drop in on this serious conversation but the add under it caught my less serious eye:
Flawless Pearl Jewelry For Christmas
Make her remember this holiday with our pearls. Money back guarantee. ( pearls for free?) So...presumably if you gave them to someone with Alzheimer's you would get your money back.
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That may be. I just said that I didn't know of any. There's a lot of things I don't know, some of which I know I don't know and some of which I don't know I don't know. And a whole lot that I don't even know it's possible not to know. Do you know on what date the Baptism is celebrated? There has been an alarming increase of late in the number of things I know absolutely nothing about!
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Do we know who wrote Hebrews? Is that one that biblical scholars are pretty sure was written by Paul? No we don't know who wrote it since it has no ascribed author, unlike all the other letters of Paul, which all begin with his name in the first line. That's one of the arguments, albeit from silence, against Pauline authorship. Paul might have written it, or he might not. Most scholars would say not. There is no totally definitive evidence, from the letter's contents, either way.
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There has been an alarming increase of late in the number of things I know absolutely nothing about!
No. There has been an alarming increase of late in the number of things that you know you know absolutely nothing about. This is a net increase of knowledge on your part, if that's any comfort.
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No. There has been an alarming increase of late in the number of things that you know you know absolutely nothing about. This is a net increase of knowledge on your part, if that's any comfort. It's kinda scary that I actually understood that the first time through.... ;0)
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And Hanukkah is found in the Bible, the Bible still used by Catholics and Orthodox,
before Luther threw out the Books of Macabbees. This is 2000 years vs. the 500 since
the Reformation.
Way I heard it, and as I said in a later post I only have it by hearsay, that while the events around which Hanukkah is based might be found in the Bible, Hanukkah itself is not a holiday mandated by God as the other Jewish holidays are. Similarly, the events around which the major Christian holidays are based, to my knowledge, are not mandated by God as holidays. I can see, for example, the Eucharist as a ritual but not the celebration of Maundy Thursday as a holiday. While the date of the Resurrection can be calculated based on the dates of Passover I don't see anything that states it should be celebrated as a holiday. Perhaps, PastorVon, if he isn't ignoring me, could enlighten me. The dating of the Nativity is, of course, quite controversial. I've heard that the fact that the shepherds were tending there flocks means that it was in the spring and James Tabor, the author of The Jesus Dynasty, has said that he thinks it was in September, IIRC. Sorry, I don't monitor the AWAD blogs every day. IF I'm going to part of them, I guess that I may have to do that. But, as I said, on signing on, I've got too many irons in the fire right now. I wasn't even going to check you all out today. I'm scheduled for outpatient surgery in about three hours and there are a number of things I have to do here at home before I leave for the doctor's in about two and a half hours. I'm to have a phlebectomy -- a radio frequency ablation of the Saphenous Veins in my left leg (to be repeated in my right leg the next Monday.) The Tasmanian Pook has addressed the issues of your implied question already. There is no one view in common about the so-called holy days (or holidays) of Christianity. There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches. Then there is a sharp divide between Roman Catholics and Protestant Catholics. And there's a spectrum of practice or belief even within Protestant Catholicism. I, for one, a Calvinist or Reformed Presbyterian, believe that the Bible mandates the observation of Sunday alone as a Christian Sabbath. All the other so-called holy days (holidays) or the imaginations and inventions of men and are accretions not mandated in the Bible and are NOT to be observed. [Public peer pressure however is tremendous and many American churches and denominations gradually or incrementally add "customs." At another time, I could pick this up; but not today.] Yes, the approximate date of Jesus' crucifixion can be calculated; but since no one knows exactly for sure which year in the A.D. calendar it occurred it is impossible to come up with a set date, as had arbitrarily done for so-called Christmas. The Eastern (Orthodox) churches set a observation date based on the Jewish calendar (or the 14th of Nisan); the Western churches follow an old formula of convenience that the Resurrection of Christ should be observed each year on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox. I think I stated that correctly. That means that Easter (so-called) can be observe early in March or late in April. As for the so-called Protestant feast days that are celebrated on Sundays and other special days of the year -- the so-called liturgical year -- {Please excuse my frequent use of so-called) -- the liturgical year is partially a matter of convenience. Today there are three cycles of the liturgical church year. It was an arbitrarily chosen artificial means to assure that churches that use or follow the liturgical year would cover the range of the teaching of the Bible thoroughly each year and comprehensively every three years. I'll send you all a URL where you can see the arrangement. I don't normally follow the liturgical year; but this year a group of fellow ministers agreed to assist one another in sermon preparation -- to meet together regularly to study the Scriptures in order to preach better sermons. We decided to use the revised liturgical year as a guide. That way we would all be on the same page Sunday after SUnday. This past Sunday, I preached on Matthew 2:1-12. The name for this Sunday was the first Sunday after Epiphany. This shows the arbitrary character of the liturgical year. When did the magi (or wise men) visit Jesus. Within two years or so after his birth. [An aside -- in Christmas pageants held round the world, the star also is included in the Shepherd scenes; but in the Bible it is only mentiuoned in reference to the magi. That's innocent and harmless accretion.] Well, according to this year's calendar, Ephipany fell in the middle of the week. We don't have "Sunday" worship in the middle of the week. Therefore, I preached on the Epiphany passage on the third Sunday after Advent or the first Sunday after Epiphany [It can be called both of those names.] Now, follow me. This next Sunday is both the fourth SUnday after Advent and the second Sunday after Epiphany. The Scripture texts of the gospel to be preached is on the Baptism of Jesus. Well, now, Jesus was only about two years old or so when the magi visited him and that is observed on January 11th. And, then, the baptism of Jesus, which took place when he was about 30 years old, is observed on January 18th. By the way: Advent means "coming." Advent is tied to Christmas but the content of the sermons around Advent refer not only to Christ's first coming, his birth, but also his second coming, in judgment at the end of the world age whenever that is to be. Epiphany means "manifestation." You see, except for the notices to Zacharias, Elizabeth, Mary, Joseph, the Shepherds, Simeon, and Anna, the world took little notice of Jesus at his birth. However, the visit of the magi to Jerusalem stirred things up. The politicos [Herod the Great, in particular -- see Matthew 2] of the world came to be aware of him, were troubled by his coming, and sought to eliminate him. Hence, His manifestation, i.e., the epiphany of Jesus. O.K. Still following. In less than three months the church year will mark the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And the liturgical year reminds us to do this every year and addresses the set days by using the various different Scripture passages that speak to these events in order that the full gospel story will be present to a congregation every year. The liturgical year is a tool that men have devised to be helpful. It is not mandated by the Bible. SOme of the denominational arguments about the church year have come about because some of the powers that be have tried to make the observation of the church year mandatory, including the clothing that a minister should wear or the color of the cloth on the pulpit desk. You all need to read Ian Murray's anthology on the Reformation of the Church. I've got to go, people. I've been too verbose as it is. But, hope this helps.
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There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches.I've been reading a book The Councils of the Church: A Short History by Norman Tanner. It is interesting that each ecumenical council ( link) was convened to deal with an issue of orthodoxy, and that after the decision was made a schism occurred. For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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[ quote=zmjezhd] There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches.I've been reading a book The Councils of the Church: A Short History by Norman Tanner. It is interesting that each ecumenical council ( link) was convened to deal with an issue of orthodoxy, and that after the decision was made a schism occurred. For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide. [/quote] And does that book mention what matter of Orthodoxy or Schism the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council was dealing with? I'd be interested.
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Actually, Pastor Von, I did understand what you wrote about
the Liturgical Year. To place the entire life of the Christ into
a one year celebration: makes perfect sense.
Death of Christ: 14 of Nisan. OK
Birth of Christ: I've read and understand that his birth was
in warmer weather, for the shepherds were in the fields.
I've also read much on the term
The Israelites "pitched their tents" or tabernacled themselves
in the desert for 40 years. The Ark of the Covenant
was in its own tent or TABERNACLE until the time of
Solomon.
So a conclusion - add warmer weather and the term
"tabernacle", and add as well from the opening phrases of the
Gospel of John: "The word was made Flesh", which could be
translated: "The word pitched His tent", or the Word tabernacled Himself among mankind.
And a conclusion could be drawn from these that the Christ
was born in autumn, near the Feast of the Tabernacles.
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And does that book mention what matter of Orthodoxy or Schism the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council was dealing with? I'd be interested.Haven't reached that one yet. IIRC, VatCon 2 dealt with the liturgy in the local vernacular, which way the priest faced during mass, etc. It lead to some quasi-schisms, like Traditionalists ( link) and Sedevacantists ( link). Now VatCon 1 actually caused a schism: the Old Catholic Church ( link) most of whom live in the Netherlands and some in the Rhineland. (There was an old Jesuit church that was an Old Catholic Church in Bonn when I lived there.) I seemed to have been unclear in my post. The various ecumenical councils throughout history were usually convened to decide on issues of orthodoxy (in the small-o sense of the word). Maybe dogma would have been a better term. They also convened to repudiate some heresies du jour. The official decisions usually lead to consequences, like schisms or heresies. For example, the First Council of Nicea (the one that created the Nicene Creed) led to the suppressed and extinct Meletian Schism. (Melitius may have ordained Arius (of Arian infamy).) [For the record, I am a secular humanist and tend towards nontheism, I am just interested in the development of Christian dogma and questions of canonicity of books in the Bible.]
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For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide. Well, almost. The Council of Trent didn't lead to the divide, but it set it in concrete. Or to change the metaphor, it was the capstone of the dispute, not the foundation stone. The council of Trent was in the 1560s. Martin Luther posted his theses to the door at Wittenburg in 1517. The term Protestants was first used Apr 19, 1529. But the Reformation had been brewing in one way or another since the Conciliar disputes of three or four centuries earlier.
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Well, almost.
Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures.
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Actually, Pastor Von, I did understand what you wrote about
the Liturgical Year. To place the entire life of the Christ into
a one year celebration: makes perfect sense.
Here is the promised URL on the lectionary year. http://divinity.library.vanderbilt.edu/lectionary/Go to the FAQ page and click on the first two selections for information on a lectionary and a church year. BTW, the Radio Frequency Ablation of the Saphenous Veins in my left leg went fairly well yesterday. There is some tendernous this morning and a couple of spots that are sore to the touch. I'm leaving the house in a few minutes to have a Doppler Ultrasound to ascertain that things are as they ought to be on the inside.
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[ quote=zmjezhd]Well, almost.
Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures. [/quote] Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later. What if the pope had made Luther a Cardinal? What if the pope had read the these posted on the doors? Did he? Did it matter? What was the threat? A lifestyle? Money? Why cannot people who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?)
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[ quote=zmjezhd]Well, almost.
Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures. Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later. What if the pope had made Luther a Cardinal? What if the pope had read the these posted on the doors? Did he? Did it matter? What was the threat? A lifestyle? Money? Why cannot people who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?) [/quote] The Pope did read the 95 Theses. His first response to them is alleged to have been, "The German monk writes good Latin." In effect, the Pope was not sufficiently astute involving issues of theology to understand the implications of the theses. They did not have a negative impact on him until monies from the German States began drying up. Then Rome took notice. But, while the effect is what caused notice to be taken, the effect was not the crux. The crux was theological. Appointing Luther as a Cardinal would not have changed the impact of the theology of the theses.
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There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches.I've been reading a book The Councils of the Church: A Short History by Norman Tanner. It is interesting that each ecumenical council ( link) was convened to deal with an issue of orthodoxy, and that after the decision was made a schism occurred. For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide. The Council of Trent did not lead to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide. The divide had already taken place. The Council of Trent really only set in stone the departuare of the Roman church from its prior biblical moorings and set it on its current course.
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[ quote=zmjezhd]Well, almost.
Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures. Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later. What if the pope had made Luther a Cardinal? What if the pope had read the these posted on the doors? Did he? Did it matter? What was the threat? A lifestyle? Money? Why cannot people who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?) The Pope did read the 95 Theses. His first response to them is alleged to have been, "The German monk writes good Latin." In effect, the Pope was not sufficiently astute involving issues of theology to understand the implications of the theses. They did not have a negative impact on him until monies from the German States began drying up. Then Rome took notice. But, while the effect is what caused notice to be taken, the effect was not the crux. The crux was theological. Appointing Luther as a Cardinal would not have changed the impact of the theology of the theses. [/quote] Appointing Luther a Cardinal would have at least brought him to the place where dialog might have taken place. And the end cause ultimately was money? Yes? if the German princes stopped sending their purses.
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BTW, the Radio Frequency Ablation of the Saphenous Veins in my left leg went fairly well yesterday. There is some tendernous this morning and a couple of spots that are sore to the touch. I'm leaving the house in a few minutes to have a Doppler Ultrasound to ascertain that things are as they ought to be on the inside. Glad to hear it. Sounds a lot more technical than my left leg, which has a broken 5th metatarsil. I got it out of plaster on Monday but have to wear an orthotic boot for a few weeks as the bone in the gap still isn't strong enough. I should have had a screw put in it, but an operation before Christmas (which is the subject of this thread so I'm still on topic!) just wasn't convenient so I opted for just the cast. Hopefully it will eventually heal okay.
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Appointing Luther as a Cardinal would not have changed the impact of the theology of the theses.
Who can know for sure. When Hendri de Navarre converted to Catholicism (he was a Huguenot) so he could be crowned King of France, he said: "Paris vaut bien une messe." (Paris is worth a mass.)
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Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had
been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later. The events leading up to, or paving the way for, the Reformation include: The Conciliar movement, which sought to limit the power of the Pope in favour of councils. The translation by Wyclif and others of the bible into English and other vulgar tongues. The rising and persecution of various 'heretical' proto-Protestant groups, partly because of the availability of bibles in the common language. These included the Lollards, Waldenses and Hussites for example. The rediscovery of better ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts for translating the bible, which meant less reliance on the Latin Vulgate. Political moves against the Pope by various Electors, Princes, Monarchs, and Holy Roman Emperors, and the rise of havens of relative toleration of dissent in states like Holland. The invention of the printing press, which meant new ideas could escape and disseminate rapidly before being immediately quashed by the Church. The rise of Christian Humanism (which predated secular humanism by several centuries) and classical study. This produced scholars like Erasmus, who although he didn't become a Reformer himself, gave fuel to their scholarly success and produced new standard Greek texts for translation. ...and on the negative side, the increasing corruption and open immorality of the Church heirarchy, which produced increasing indignation, especially in places like Germany which were also heavily taxed by the Pope. What if the pope had made Luther a Cardinal? Luther would never have accepted a political/ecclesiastical bribe in return for recanting. He was not interested in power and advancement, only Truth. He was not a politician like Henri of Navarre, but the son of peasant, and was not in the least bit diplomatic or machiavellian. Compromise was not in his vocabulary. Why cannot people who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?) Luther (and the bible) would have called it 'sin'. That's why. We are fundamentally self-centered. And when groups of self-centered people form into a society we get the ethno-centricity that leads to war. But there is a difference between tolerating people (which we ought to do whether or not they agree with us) and tolerating ideas by doing what our relativistic post modernism does by coming up with this ridiculous idea that everyone's ideas are equally valid and true. That's nonsense.
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It is easy to judge from hindsight. But who is really to know
what might have happened? Nonsense? That could be just
your opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
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OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
But there is a difference between tolerating people (which we ought to do whether or not they agree with us) and tolerating ideas by doing what our relativistic post modernism does by coming up with this ridiculous idea that everyone's ideas are equally valid and true. That's nonsense. Isn't there an inconsistancy here between tolerating people who do not have the ideas one agrees with (which you say we ought to do), and not tolerating 'everyones' ideas because they are not equally valid or true to one's own? Ideas never stand on their own.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
I'm not sure tolerating ideas is the same thing as agreeing that they are equally valid. If you say that snow is black and I say it is white then however much I love you I cannot think that your idea is equally true and valid. (I may also wonder if your eyesight is valid) I will however "tolerate" your idea in that I do agree with your right to have and defend your idea.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
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OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Thank you valid Zed, that's a very good and simple way to help me out of this confusion. You are right as most ever.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
It is easy to judge from hindsight. But who is really to know what might have happened? How else can you judge history? You can't judge it before it happens! Nonsense? That could be just your opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Well yes, but it is based on logic. The idea that two or more contradictory views can all be right is not logical. It's just patronising nonsense IMO. Agreeing to disagree is fine - that's what I'm talking about - that's what toleration really means - tolerating the person, without having to say that their idea or belief is true. The latter is what Relativism insists on.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
I'm not sure tolerating ideas is the same thing as agreeing that they are equally valid. If you say that snow is black and I say it is white then however much I love you I cannot think that your idea is equally true and valid. (I may also wonder if your eyesight is valid) I will however "tolerate" your idea in that I do agree with your right to have and defend your idea. Yes, that's what I mean.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
Isn't there an inconsistancy here between tolerating people who do not have the ideas one agrees with (which you say we ought to do), and not tolerating 'everyones' ideas because they are not equally valid or true to one's own? Ideas never stand on their own. Good point Bran. Of course ideas, religions, political ideologies, etc are part of a person and often people will take great offense when you criticise beliefs they cherish and see it as a personal attack on them. There is always a need for sensitivity in interpersonal relations of any kind. But that doesn't change whether or not beliefs are true or false. Unless you subscribe to relativism of course.
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
On the other hand, there is the possibility that your ideas and the ideas of the perswon you tolerate are both wrong. Then they are equally right.
Or, another example might be this: Is it polite to look at people that you are talking to? In some cultures, if you don't look at a person you are talking to you will be judged as being unreliable. In other societies looking at the person you are talking to is considered rude, even insulting.
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