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The recent news about the hapless Sherry L Johnston raises the question: What do you call the mother of your son-in-law? Is she a cousin-in-law? Do we even have a word for this in English? How about some other languages? Do any languages anyone here knows have a term for such a beast?
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How about my son-in-law's mother?
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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formerly known as etaoin...
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Eve Arden and Kaye Ballard were "The Mothers-in-law" for 44 episodes without needing a name for it (They played next-door neighbors whose children married each other if you're not old enough to remember 1960's sitcoms).
Technically, cousins share at least one ancestor so they're not any sort of cousin.
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Technically, cousins share at least one ancestor so they're not any sort of cousin.
I've got two brothers-in-law and one of them doesn't even share any ancestors with my wife.
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old hand
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I don't reckon we do have any name whatsoever for this relation in English. So let's make one up. 
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I don't reckon we do have any name whatsoever for this relation in English. So let's make one up. thought I already did. :P
formerly known as etaoin...
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I keep squeezing apples and not getting any orange juice... (^_^)
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I keep squeezing apples and not getting any orange juice... (^_^) Lessee. You're claiming that since cousins must have at least one ancestor in common, the mother of one's son-in-law can't be a cousin-in-law because they don't have any ancestors in common. Brothers should have at least two ancestors in common but brothers-in-law don't have any ancestors in common either. Maybe you should start squeezing papayas. Maybe you'll get some pineapple juice.
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old hand
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No that would be the mother of your de facto. Unless you were a bandit, in case it would be just your mother.
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The relationship between the two people in question is due to a
relationship between their descendants not their ancestors.
To be even more specific, with cousins, the common ancestor is more than one generation away (first cousins share at least one grandparent, second cousins share at least one great-grandparent, etc.). The bond of the people in question is due to their immediate descendants, not their grandchildren.
Last edited by Myridon; 12/24/08 05:15 PM.
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"Machetunim." But it works better if you have a Yiddish font.
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Technically, cousins share at least one ancestor so they're not any sort of cousin.
I've got two brothers-in-law and one of them doesn't even share any ancestors with my wife. I have some cousins who share no ancestry with no one. Like I used to tell my brother growing up: " I am an only child ".
----please, draw me a sheep----
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I don't reckon we do have any name whatsoever for this relation in English. So let's make one up. Do other languages have words for this relationship??
----please, draw me a sheep----
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The relationship between the two people in question is due to a
relationship between their descendants not their ancestors.
To be even more specific, with cousins, the common ancestor is more than one generation away (first cousins share at least one grandparent, second cousins share at least one great-grandparent, etc.). The bond of the people in question is due to their immediate descendants, not their grandchildren. Be careful here not to confuse 'second cousins' with 'first cousins once removed'.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Actually, I wasn't kidding. Here's a three-year-old article from William Safire in the International Herald Tribune: The relevant snippet states: Language: Foreign tidbits worth gobbling up
By William Safire
Published: MONDAY, APRIL 18, 2005
...Every few months a query comes in about in-laws: "What do I call my father-in-law's brother?" The English lexicon does have that unfilled semantic space. Yiddish comes to the rescue by naming all one's relatives by marriage as machetunim, mokh-eh-TOO-nim, plural of the Hebrew mechutan, mokh-HOO-ten, which could signify your spouse's mother's second cousin. The most inclusive word is mishpocheh (mish-PAW-kheh), literally "family," which lumps together just about everybody invited to the wedding. It is similar to the Russian rodnye (rohd-NEE-eh).
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Genealogy is one of my hobbies so I do know a bit of what I'm talking about. For first cousins once removed, the common ancestor is the grand-parent of one cousin and the great-grandparent of the other cousin.
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"Machetunim."
Yiddish mekhutn 'father of one's son- or daughter-in-law'; mekhutonim 'in-laws'; mekhuteneste 'mother of one's son- or daughter-in-law'; mekhutoneshaft 'relation by marriage'. Bonus saying: vos far a mekhutn bin ikh dir? "What am I to you?" The words are from the Hebrew MChTN 'relative by marriage' < ChTN 'to become related by marriage', related to ChTN 'daughter's husband', cf. Arabic chatar 'son-in-law, bridegroom'.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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In the case of the mother of the bride and the mother of the husband the only common blood relatives would be the children of the husband and wife. This would be the MoB and MoH's grandchildren, so I'm sticking with cousin-in-law.
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Cousins have common ancestors not common descendents.
"In-law" means by marriage, not by birth. What are they if the couple never have children?
What is your cousin's spouse if not your cousin-in-law?
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old hand
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Genealogy is one of my hobbies so I do know a bit of what I'm talking about. For first cousins once removed, the common ancestor is the grand-parent of one cousin and the great-grandparent of the other cousin. Another term for such a relationship is cousin-aunt/uncle and cousin-nephew/niece. Some would say that "once removed" refers to once removed by marriage, ie a cousin in law. Others claim it refers to one generation removed. For that reason I prefer the less ambiguous cousin-aunt or cousin-uncle.
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I totally agree. So many think the first-cousin-once-removed
is their "second cousin", whereas second cousins would be
the children of each of the first cousins? Correct?
----please, draw me a sheep----
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[quote] Cousins have common ancestors not common descendents.
"In-law" means by marriage, not by birth. What are they if the couple never have children?
What is your cousin's spouse if not your cousin-in-law? [/quote ] Indeed, what else? but your cousin-in-law? I find this really interesting in America (or Western Society) whereas the Jewish conversation above was quite important,if for nothing else in a nomadic society, having plenty of "cousins" to defend the tribe. Witness Abraham and his 318 retainers. (Genesis 14:14)
----please, draw me a sheep----
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old hand
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Jewish conversation above was quite important,if for nothing else in a nomadic society, having plenty of "cousins" to defend the tribe. Witness Abraham and his 318 retainers. (Genesis 14:14) (Without wanting to turn this into a biblical exegesis class...) This can be misleading if taken out of the wider Genesis story because it doesn't take into account Genesis 12:16 which says that Abraham acquired many menservants and maidservants in Egypt. And there are mentioned on several occasions his 'herdsmen' who may have been these Egyptian servants or local Canaanites employed for this purpose. So "the 318 trained men born in his household" that he called out in Gen 14:14 were probably mostly not Abraham's relatives at all! Cousins were mostly important to Ancient Near Eastern tribal culture for marrying. And this is also reflected in the Genesis narratives. Abraham and Isaac sent their children back to the land of their ancestors to find marriage partners from amongst their cousins.
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My understanding is that lots of languages have distinct names for many relationships. I read a funny article on the subject years ago by a man proposing English names for every relationship imaginable. I think the title was "Are you a Funkle?" That's what your father's brother would be. Your mother's brother would be your Munkle. Your sister's daughter would be your Siece, and your brother's daughter would be your Biece. It got complicated when he got to the in-laws, but there was a system. Anyway, we call in our family we like "inlaw-inlaws" better than "outlaws".
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Jewish conversation above was quite important,if for nothing else in a nomadic society, having plenty of "cousins" to defend the tribe. Witness Abraham and his 318 retainers. (Genesis 14:14) (Without wanting to turn this into a biblical exegesis class...) This can be misleading if taken out of the wider Genesis story because it doesn't take into account Genesis 12:16 which says that Abraham acquired many menservants and maidservants in Egypt. And there are mentioned on several occasions his 'herdsmen' who may have been these Egyptian servants or local Canaanites employed for this purpose. So "the 318 trained men born in his household" that he called out in Gen 14:14 were probably mostly not Abraham's relatives at all! Cousins were mostly important to Ancient Near Eastern tribal culture for marrying. And this is also reflected in the Genesis narratives. Abraham and Isaac sent their children back to the land of their ancestors to find marriage partners from amongst their cousins. Most assuredly your analysis can be correct. But many may have married into the tribe between the chapters indicated. But not to bicker. And returning to the land of their ancestors is also common, as you point out, and used for defense reasons as well. Who knows? Interesting concept in a discussion about in laws and the like.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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My understanding is that lots of languages have distinct names for many relationships. I read a funny article on the subject years ago by a man proposing English names for every relationship imaginable. I think the title was "Are you a Funkle?" That's what your father's brother would be. Your mother's brother would be your Munkle. Your sister's daughter would be your Siece, and your brother's daughter would be your Biece. It got complicated when he got to the in-laws, but there was a system. Anyway, we call in our family we like "inlaw-inlaws" better than "outlaws". Which reminds me of the old "folksong"(?) entitled "I am my own Grandpa". Does anyone know the words to that song, or know where to get them?
----please, draw me a sheep----
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well, my first notion was to try the obvious contraction: link - ron o.
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Then there was the sci-fi story that involved time travel and a sex change operation.
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the wikipedia article (see link) mentions a Robert A. Heinlein story -All You Zombies—, the bartender, a time-traveling hermaphrodite who is his/her own father and mother demands that this song, playing on the jukebox, be stopped. that must be it.
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There was also a sci-fi story involving time travel about a woman who became her own progenetrix. But I can't remember what it was called.
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the wikipedia article (see link) mentions a Robert A. Heinlein story -All You Zombies—, the bartender, a time-traveling hermaphrodite who is his/her own father and mother demands that this song, playing on the jukebox, be stopped. that must be it. That's the one. Does this mean I've mantled Wikipedia? Or just that I didn't read the article?
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well, my first notion was to try the obvious contraction: link - ron o. You see what 8000 posts and lots of computer experience can do for you? I'm still not onto the whole process, probably will take a long time. Thanks much, tsuwm.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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old hand
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How about my son-in-law's mother? After all is said and done, this is still the best answer I reckon!
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I've given up on cousin-in-law. I'm now stumping for wife-in-law. Spouse-in-law would be the general term, husband-in-law for a child's spouse's father.
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 Once you all have worked this one out there is still the interesting field of confusement about offspring from second and third to the sixth marriage; children who have uncles and aunts younger than themselves . Nieces and nephews; raising the question who is who's whatever. ( time will come when a three year old wil be the greatgranduncle of a fifteen year old. )
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So the mother of the present husband of your son's ex-wife would be your wife-in-law once removed.
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