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#178659 - 08/12/08 09:12 AM French place names
Chatter Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 2
Loc: California
Hi -- I am new to this site and hoping that it is OK to ask a non-English question. We live part time in Languedoc (just West of Provence) and a huge number of village names in the area end in '-argues'. Examples: Lansargues, Baillargues, Saturargues -- the list is endless. And of course, just to the South is Camargue (no 's' here). I have failed so far to find anything on the meaning or etymology of this suffix (?). Any hints?

thanks

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#178666 - 08/12/08 12:48 PM Re: French place names [Re: Chatter]
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Hi
Just wondering what the neighbouring languages are in your area. (High school geography was a long time ago.)

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#178668 - 08/12/08 01:01 PM Re: French place names [Re: Zed]
tsuwm Online   confused
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Zed, if you check the thread above the salt* where nuncle addresses this question, you'll see a link to a very nice geographical type chart (read: map) which shows the frequency of -argues.

here's another, more specific to language.

*making the same post in two different forums usually only tends to divide possibly useful replies.

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#178673 - 08/12/08 03:46 PM Re: French place names [Re: Chatter]
BranShea Offline
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[ Deleted superfluous post due to double running thread. ] {Back home to Nugacity}.

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#180822 - 12/10/08 04:30 PM Re: French place names [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Just west of Provence. Could it be influenced by Provencal?
Isn't that a Latin offshoot?
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#180825 - 12/10/08 06:09 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
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Isn't that a Latin offshoot?

Yes, Provençal is a Romance language (which means it's a descendant of Vulgar Latin). It is related to other langues d'oc (languages that use oc for 'yes') in the South of France: e.g., Occitan.
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#180838 - 12/11/08 11:17 AM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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And was not Languedoc a former "province"? It seems like it was a place name before the revolution. In the era's of monarchical France.
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#180882 - 12/11/08 11:49 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
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And was not Languedoc a former "province"?

Yes, the old monarchical provinces got broken up into smaller departments. The original province was the province of Provence. It was the first area outside of Italy that the Romans conquered: pro + vincia, the final morpheme related to vinco 'to conquer'. It later became a generic noun for 'province, jurisdiction, sphere of administration'.
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#180895 - 12/12/08 05:17 PM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Love it! There is so much to be learned, even for an old school teacher. Appreciate the update. The old French provinces were so romantic. Wine districts as well. Every so often they creep into one's life. Heard Aquitaine mentioned in an old movie the other day.
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#180905 - 12/13/08 01:38 AM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
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Wine districts as well.

Yes, my personal favorite is currently Bourgogne 'Burgundy'. Etzel (Attila), Siegfried (Sigurd), and Kriemhilde (Gudrun, Brunhilda) are all associated with Burgundy, the place not the wine, and it's origin is in a Germanic tribe, the Burgundians.
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#180954 - 12/16/08 01:18 PM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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"onward, onward, swords against the foe" (I'll get it, yet)
Back in college, in glee club we sang a song about the
Burgundians. It will come eventually. I can hear the music in my head, but the words have to find a way thru all the blockage.
Germany had (or has, I guess) some very beautiful provinces, once duchies,principalities and the like, now states. Central
European History is rife with these themes which made for operas like Siegfried, etc.
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#183772 - 03/21/09 10:21 AM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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This thread's title: French Place names.
The Platte River; Platte is French for Flat. The jokes about the
river: "mile wide and and inch deep", and "too thin to plow, too
thick to drink".
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#183779 - 03/21/09 01:47 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
BranShea Offline
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How do you always manage to find these old threads? I want however to object to (if you don't mind) this: 'platte is French for flat'.
French for flat is plat . In this form : "platte" it really only exists in Dutch and Flemish. It is how we write the adjective from the adverb plat. That is why it struck me as odd when you mentioned it some time ago. What does 'platte' do in the Midwest?

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#183784 - 03/21/09 02:01 PM Re: French place names [Re: BranShea]
zmjezhd Offline
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French for flat is plat.

But the feminine of the adjective is plate and rivière 'river' is feminine, no? I think an extra t got slapped on so that folks wouldn't pronounce it plate /plejt/. According to the Wikipedia article, the Oto called it 'flat river', too (link).
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#183791 - 03/21/09 03:25 PM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Offline
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Totally convincing; nice article and pictures too. French to the bottom of it.
Ever tripped on a pallid sturgeon Javanluke? pallid sturgeon

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#183793 - 03/21/09 04:25 PM Re: French place names [Re: BranShea]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Originally Posted By: BranShea
Ever tripped on a pallid sturgeon Javanluke? pallid sturgeon


don't know about LJ8, but I caught one of these in the Missouri just a few counties north of where the Platte empties: spoonbill!
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#183794 - 03/21/09 04:38 PM Re: French place names [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
BranShea Offline
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Nooh! What a creature! I always think I've seen the strangest things but there never is an end to it. close up hmm..

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#183797 - 03/21/09 05:09 PM Re: French place names [Re: BranShea]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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yup, and that's a little one (mine wasn't much bigger, only 36" long). I was hoping to have it taxidermied (I didn't dare say stuffed and mounted around here...), but as a skin fish, it's a difficult job, and quite expensive. ah well. memories.

did you see this one? big


Edited by etaoin (03/21/09 05:10 PM)
Edit Reason: added link to big paddlefish
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#183816 - 03/22/09 01:46 PM Re: French place names [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Originally Posted By: BranShea
How do you always manage to find these old threads? I want however to object to (if you don't mind) this: 'platte is French for flat'.
French for flat is plat . In this form : "platte" it really only exists in Dutch and Flemish. It is how we write the adjective from the adverb plat. That is why it struck me as odd when you mentioned it some time ago. What does 'platte' do in the Midwest?


Beats me! And I'm not familiar with Dutch nor Flemish.
But the history book used to teach the state history mentions it that way. Probably because la riviere
is feminine, making the adjective feminine: La riviere platte. (?) The flat river.

Finding old threads? Ah retirement, 'tis great.
Is there still a Count of Flanders? I know both the Netherlands,Belgium, and Luxembourg are monarchies???
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#183817 - 03/22/09 01:47 PM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
French for flat is plat.

But the feminine of the adjective is plate and rivière 'river' is feminine, no? I think an extra t got slapped on so that folks wouldn't pronounce it plate /plejt/. According to the Wikipedia article, the Oto called it 'flat river', too (link).


thanks zm: I answered before reading your posting.
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#183820 - 03/22/09 04:10 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
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Luxembourg

The Netherlands and Belgium are both monarchies, but Luxembourg is a grand duchy.
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#183821 - 03/22/09 04:52 PM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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I've seen the spoonbill, the sturgeon, even the gar.
I'd put a picture on here about gar, but can't do that yet,
despite many of your attepts to teach me.

I am aware Luxembourg is a Grand Duchy, but is not an hereditary
duchy a monarchy? The Duke or Duchess being the monarch?
How about an hereditary Principality like Monaco or Liechtenstein.
Is monarchy limited to a King. Just wondering really. What about
hereditary emirates? Or sultanate, like Oman or Brunei?


Edited by LukeJavan8 (03/22/09 04:55 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#183822 - 03/22/09 06:42 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
BranShea Offline
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OH, yet another one of those miracles.link Here's the gar. Never knew those rivers had these giant fishes in them.

Never mind the Duke Luke, nor the Duchess.

"The spoonbill, sturgeon and the gar
They were the best of friends
So when spoonbill needed money one day
Sturgeon took out a roll of tens "

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#183841 - 03/23/09 05:44 PM Re: French place names [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Just curious about the monarchs.
We have a coronation here each autumn. A local service group
crowns a business person as King of Aksarben, and the daughter
of another is crowned Queen. 115 years of this or so. We have
queens and kings of the prom, Dairy Queen, Dairy Princess, Rose Bowl Queen, etc. For a democracy or republic or whatever we are,
we are fascinated with royalty and monarchy (whatever it is.)

As for gar, spoonbill, and their ilk, we also have the giant
catfish. One recently died (in a local aquarium, over a hundred years old and about 150 lbs.) Caught in the river.
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#183867 - 03/24/09 04:21 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
olly Offline
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Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 953
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Just curious about the monarchs.

Most of the Pacific Island cultures still retain a traditional monarchy. In Rarotonga, my homeland, there are currently 2 queens with a third under contest. You must prove geneaology. To some extent the rule of 'primogeniture' is active but in recent years, more often than not, the female lines have prevailed due to strength of character.

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#183872 - 03/24/09 05:54 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
PastorVon Offline
member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8
Just curious about the monarchs.
We have a coronation here each autumn. A local service group
crowns a business person as King of Aksarben, and the daughter
of another is crowned Queen. 115 years of this or so. We have
queens and kings of the prom, Dairy Queen, Dairy Princess, Rose Bowl Queen, etc. For a democracy or republic or whatever we are,
we are fascinated with royalty and monarchy (whatever it is.)

As for gar, spoonbill, and their ilk, we also have the giant
catfish. One recently died (in a local aquarium, over a hundred years old and about 150 lbs.) Caught in the river.


I don't know if St. Louis still has the annual "Veiled Prophet Ball" at which or for which some one is crowned.

In Ste. Genevieve, MO, and Prairie du Rocher, IL, there are annual balls held around the end of the year called La Guianne. Since both of these towns have French origins, the connection is obviously French; but the origins of the celebration are basically unknown. However, in the tradition, a cake is baked from a batter that contains four or five beans. The cake is sliced and divied out to the young women at the ball. The first woman who discovers a bean is crowned as the queen of the ball and she is allowed to chose a man as her consort for the evening festivities. As part of the tradition, mixed choirs roam the streets of the towns singing French songs similar to madrigals or English caroling although the songs are not necessarily Christian. Ste. Genevieve is considered by many to be then oldest city of European origin west of the Mississippi River. Prairie du Rocher is about 300 years old and had no Protestant church in its envirions until the 1960s. It is also the site of one of the earliest French forts in the upper Mississippi River Valley, Fort de Chartres. It has been the site of an annual Rendevous in the recent past. BTW, Ste. Genevieve is the home of a cured beef sausage of French origin that has been made by one family, the Oberles for a couple hundred years. My paternal grandfather and his family lived in Ste. Gen during the first three decades of the 1900s. He was a bridge carpenter for the Missouri-Illinois RR. He died in 1935. WHen I was growing up in Chester, IL, my grandmother and father introduced me to the pleasures of Oberle sausage. Today, whenever I am in the area, I always make a side-trip to Ste. Gen to buy some Oberle sausage. Got some just this past October.

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#183877 - 03/24/09 06:32 PM Re: French place names [Re: PastorVon]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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I have not checked but Dubuque, Iowa, was founded in the 1600's
and (chuckle) is west of the Mississippi, on the west bank.
How old is Ste. Genevieve, MO?
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#183901 - 03/25/09 02:29 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
BranShea Offline
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Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8

As for gar, spoonbill, and their ilk, we also have the giant
catfish. One recently died (in a local aquarium, over a hundred years old and about 150 lbs.) Caught in the river.
Just hope it spend the better part of those hundred years in the river.

When these big fishes turned up in this thread few days ago this movie passed on TV:
Big Fish
A bit of a chaotic fantasy movie, with Albert Finney doing Southern accent but the fish in question was a giant catfish, just as big as you and Etaoin describe. Huge!

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#183915 - 03/25/09 06:10 PM Re: French place names [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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They are huge and magnificent animals. Don't know about the
aquarium fish, but I know the last 20 years were confined.
It had been injured, however, and would never have live had it
not been thus. The gar and spoonbill are mighty.
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#183919 - 03/25/09 07:42 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
PastorVon Offline
member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8

I have not checked but Dubuque, Iowa, was founded in the 1600's
and (chuckle) is west of the Mississippi, on the west bank.
How old is Ste. Genevieve, MO?


I did a Google. I thought it was older than its website indicates. I thought it was at least as old as Prairie du Rocher, IL; and older than Chester, IL, which were both founded in the 1600s. Somewhere in one of my boxes, I have a history of the French Illinois Country, which included Cahokia, Fort de Chartres (Prairie du Rocher) and Kaskaskia, which are in present-day Illinois, Vincenes which is in present-day Indiana, and Ste. Genvieve, which is in present-day Missouri. According to Wikipedia, SG is *only* the oldest permanent European town in Missouri. So, my memory has served me wrong.

"Sainte Genevieve, Missouri: Missouri's Most Historic Town

While 1735 is celebrated as Ste. Genevieve's birth date, the village of Ste. Genevieve was established somewhere between 1722 and 1749. The first permanent European settlement in what now is the state of Missouri, the community was established as a trading outpost and was later settled by lead miners, farmers and fur traders. Before the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, the dominant architecture was French Creole with wooden homes built in several styles. Most of these homes feature galeries, or porches, surrounding the homes. These homes were gradually replaced by brick buildings as the American influence on the city took hold. Most of the earlier French structures are gone, but Ste. Genevieve holds the distinction of having the largest concentration of French Colonial buildings in the country. Three of these buildings - the Amoureux, the Bolduc, and the Guibourd-Valle houses - are open to the public. The Felix Valle Home is open to the public and demonstrates the effect of the American influence."

These named houses are log "cabins" built in French style rather than American. Their logs are vertical rather than horizontal and are actually slabs rather than logs.

Cahokia is located on the Illinois side of the Mississippi across from St. Louis. Do a Google on "Cahokia Mounds."

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#184007 - 03/30/09 11:42 AM Re: French place names [Re: PastorVon]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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I too did some checking and found Dubuque, IA is younger than
I thought. Sorry to be misleading. Julien Dubuque arrived in the
late 1700's and settled the area from a European perspective.
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#184016 - 03/30/09 07:54 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Seems like there should be some cities in the southwest that would be older but I don't really know a good way to find out without a lot of guessing. I did check Los Angeles and, although the first Europeans were there in 1542 no settlement was started until 1769.

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#184129 - 04/05/09 01:42 PM Re: French place names [Re: Faldage]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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And Santa Fe, NM would be another, I'd guess. Most of the
"san" and "santa" towns of California, founded by Franciscan
missionaries are quite old, but it would take some searching
to find out: San Diego, San Juan Capistrano, e.g.
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#184138 - 04/05/09 07:46 PM Re: French place names [Re: LukeJavan8]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Wikipedia seems to be fairly reliable in first settlement dates. the few I've checked out were areas first visited before 1600 but not permanently settled till much later. Santa Fe seems to have been formally founded in 1610.

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#184140 - 04/05/09 08:20 PM Re: French place names [Re: Faldage]
PastorVon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Seems like there should be some cities in the southwest that would be older but I don't really know a good way to find out without a lot of guessing. I did check Los Angeles and, although the first Europeans were there in 1542 no settlement was started until 1769.


According to a number of books I have read, Los Angeles began as a sailing "station" where cattle hides were cured so that they could be transported to other parts of the world to be made into leather products. A semi-permanent village grew up around the "industry" as workers brought to the station by the sailing vessels remained ashore to process the hides. A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha!

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#184150 - 04/06/09 01:38 AM Re: French place names [Re: PastorVon]
Zed Offline
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Registered: 08/27/02
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Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: PastorVon
A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha!


I in an interview he said that he did a lot of research to have facts right for his books: routes, water holes, settlements etc.

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#184157 - 04/06/09 07:33 AM Re: French place names [Re: PastorVon]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Originally Posted By: PastorVon
]

According to a number of books I have read, Los Angeles began as a sailing "station" where cattle hides were cured so that they could be transported to other parts of the world to be made into leather products. A semi-permanent village grew up around the "industry" as workers brought to the station by the sailing vessels remained ashore to process the hides. A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha!


Any dates? Cattle hides suggests a fairly late date.

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#184158 - 04/06/09 08:16 AM Re: French place names [Re: Faldage]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Any dates? Cattle hides suggests a fairly late date.


yeah, the first few dates were probably something like flowers and candy.
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#184161 - 04/06/09 11:51 AM Re: French place names [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
tsuwm Online   confused
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>the first few dates were probably something like flowers and candy.

heh©.

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#184173 - 04/06/09 07:47 PM Re: French place names [Re: tsuwm]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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Tee

Hee

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#184176 - 04/06/09 09:35 PM Re: French place names [Re: Faldage]
PastorVon Offline
member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: PastorVon
]

According to a number of books I have read, Los Angeles began as a sailing "station" where cattle hides were cured so that they could be transported to other parts of the world to be made into leather products. A semi-permanent village grew up around the "industry" as workers brought to the station by the sailing vessels remained ashore to process the hides. A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha!


Any dates? Cattle hides suggests a fairly late date.


The pueblo of Los Angeles was founded in September 1781 at a site about 20 miles northeast of San Pedro Bay where the cattle industry L'Amour referred to was located. The site was first visited by a Spanish explorer in the late 1500s who noted that it would be very suitable for a town; but no settlement was established there until 1781. I don't recall if L'Amour indicated dates. One of his books in which Los Angelos is referred to, I believe, is "Lonesome Gods."

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#184185 - 04/07/09 08:21 AM Re: French place names [Re: PastorVon]
zmjezhd Offline
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FWIW, here's (link) a list of cities in North America with their foundation dates.
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#184190 - 04/07/09 01:22 PM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Offline
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Good list! Thanks.

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#184216 - 04/09/09 12:39 PM Re: French place names [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
FWIW, here's (link) a list of cities in North America with their foundation dates.


Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to research.
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#193368 - 10/05/10 06:56 PM Re: French place names [Re: Chatter]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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The last nail in the coffin.

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#193381 - 10/07/10 03:32 PM Re: French place names [Re: Faldage]
BranShea Offline
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If only it were the last coffin.

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#193383 - 10/07/10 08:50 PM Re: French place names [Re: Chatter]
Faldage Online   sleepy
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I see my post makes no sense whatsoever. But, hey! That's cool.

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#193384 - 10/07/10 08:59 PM Re: French place names [Re: Faldage]
tsuwm Online   confused
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>That's cool.

what's really cool is that *no one* had the hardihood to comment on how it really made no sense whatsoever.

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#193385 - 10/07/10 09:07 PM Re: French place names [Re: tsuwm]
olly Offline
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Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 953
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Now I can stop wondering.

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#193386 - 10/07/10 10:30 PM Re: French place names [Re: olly]
Faldage Online   sleepy
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13783
I could explain it if anyone's really interested, but it's kinda complex and pretty boring. Probably better y'all just entertain whatever fantasies you might be harboring.

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#193391 - 10/08/10 08:39 AM Re: French place names [Re: Chatter]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
I assumed it had to do with the recent spam.
_________________________
formerly known as etaoin...

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#193408 - 10/09/10 04:53 AM Re: French place names [Re: Faldage]
Avy Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 724
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Probably better y'all just entertain whatever fantasies you might be harboring.
Okay.

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