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#167603 - 04/16/07 08:01 PM Cancer
Gizmo Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
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My daughter asked this evening why the disease cancer was named after a crab. I figured I'd check here first!

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#167620 - 04/17/07 12:52 PM Re: Cancer [Re: Gizmo]
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Perhaps because it sticks to you as if it had claws? Let's wait for one of our resident etymologists to explain the connection... and welcome, Gizmo.

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#167621 - 04/17/07 01:43 PM Re: Cancer [Re: AnnaStrophic]
tsuwm Offline
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the tumour, according to Galen, was so called from the swollen veins surrounding the part affected bearing a resemblance to a crab's limbs. [OED2]

-joe (crabbit) friday

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#168129 - 05/08/07 01:22 PM Re: Cancer [Re: tsuwm]
quizzersapru Offline
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Well, I am not only interested in etymology, but am also a practising radiation oncologist. There are loads of medical books explaining the etymology of "cancer". "Cancer" or the Greek "Canker" means "crab". Although one is not certain who coined this term, most books agree on Galen (which is sort of ironic, as he was a Roman physician and chose a Greek root; but then doctors have always loved esoteria... :-) ) Anyway, the term comes from the descriptive pathology of a usual malignant tumour (malignant is important, because you cannot/should not term benign lesions as cancer; and more importantly, or relevantly, the ancient ones recognised the entity of malignant & benign, and chose to name only the malignant one as "cancer"!) which spreads its claws in all directions, much like a crab, and has a tenacious tendency to hold on to the parent tissue even when resected, again like the creature.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
_________________________
Cogito ergo sum!

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#169718 - 08/27/07 05:58 PM Re: Cancer [Re: quizzersapru]
Jose Gros Offline
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Registered: 08/25/07
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Hi! The info I have is in the same line. The word crab seems to have been used by classical greeks because some breast tumours, namely a type called "scirrous" gave -it is not the case today unless left without therapy- the breast the appearance of having been attacked by crab´s claws. I am a medical oncologist, and yes I have interest in ethymologies, as the origin of words give clues to the history of them, and old meanings, and meanings in different cultures give light to unsuspected connections, e.g. God,Gott, gauthi, gotha, ghost, gheist, Deus, Eloi, Allah, El-Al, Jainkoa, Dyaus, Zeus, Jupiter, Yahveh Adonay (Jhvh Dny) Juhuvah Adonayanam (jhvh dnynm), King, Koenig, Ganaka. Wikipedia contains a lot of resources on this


Edited by Jose Gros (08/28/07 09:03 AM)

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#182018 - 01/25/09 01:05 AM Re: Cancer [Re: Jose Gros]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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I seem to remember the reverend who gave the invocation at
Obama's inauguration invoking Isai, Yeshua, Jesus, etc.
toward the end of the prayer. In a way, however, by doing
so he ignored many by remaining totally in his own faith.
Not bad necessarily, just interesting.
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#182021 - 01/25/09 10:55 AM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
zmjezhd Offline
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The Latin for crab (and cancer) is cancer, whence English cancer and canker; the Greek for crab is karkinos, whence English carcinoma. Galen wrote in Greek and used karkinos 'crab' for the disease cancer; Aulus Cornelius Celsus used the Latin word cancer in his De medicina. Greek has both ogkos, i.e., onkos, whence English oncology) and kele) for 'tumor' .
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#182023 - 01/25/09 12:27 PM Re: Cancer [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Wherever the term comes from it is catastrophic, and I hope
our two posters above who work in the field help find a
cure and soon.
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#182079 - 01/27/09 09:59 AM Re: Cancer [Re: zmjezhd]
The Pook Offline
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Originally Posted By: quizzersapru
(which is sort of ironic, as he was a Roman physician and chose a Greek root


Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
The Latin for crab (and cancer) is cancer, whence English cancer and canker; the Greek for crab is karkinos, whence English carcinoma. Galen wrote in Greek and used karkinos 'crab' for the disease cancer; Aulus Cornelius Celsus used the Latin word cancer in his De medicina. Greek has both ogkos, i.e., onkos, whence English oncology) and kele) for 'tumor' .

Very thorough as usual James!

The only thing I can think to add is that the reason he would have written in Greek even though he was from a Roman family line himself, is that Greek was the linga franca of most of the Roman Empire at that time. Latin was the language of the Army and Civil Administration, but Greek was the language of the marketplace, science, religion and philosophy. It was only after the Empire split into East and West that Latin became more important in the Western half and eventually dominated European science and religion. Greek continued to be dominant in the Byzantine Empire. Galen also lived in Pergamum, at the more Greek end of the Empire. Of course if he live there now he would speak Turkish.

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#182083 - 01/27/09 12:10 PM Re: Cancer [Re: The Pook]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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And I believe the everyday spoken Greek was/is called Koine
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#182087 - 01/27/09 12:57 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
BranShea Offline
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Koine
It's handy Luke, to keep wikipedia as a favorite in your sideline.
Though not always 100% accurate it serves for first check ups.

Another one is OneLook:

onelook
on this page you can enter any word you want to know about and a whole list of online dictionaries turns up.


Edited by BranShea (01/27/09 01:18 PM)

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#182110 - 01/27/09 08:17 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
The Pook Offline
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Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8


And I believe the everyday spoken Greek was/is called Koine

Sort of. Mostly only after about the first century BC. And that's probably not what the speakers back then would have called it, any more than earlier eras thought of themselves as speaking "classical" language, or people at Shakespeare's time thought they were using "Elizabethan" English. It's a later designation in order to distinguish it from Classical or Byzantine or Modern Greek.

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#182210 - 01/30/09 02:03 PM Re: Cancer [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Originally Posted By: BranShea
Koine
It's handy Luke, to keep wikipedia as a favorite in your sideline.
Though not always 100% accurate it serves for first check ups.

Another one is OneLook:

onelook
on this page you can enter any word you want to know about and a whole list of online dictionaries turns up.


Thanks for the reference. I know Wiki is not always reliable. I remember the "koine' from
my scripture studies, thanks.
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#182211 - 01/30/09 02:04 PM Re: Cancer [Re: The Pook]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Pook
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8


And I believe the everyday spoken Greek was/is called Koine

Sort of. Mostly only after about the first century BC. And that's probably not what the speakers back then would have called it, any more than earlier eras thought of themselves as speaking "classical" language, or people at Shakespeare's time thought they were using "Elizabethan" English. It's a later designation in order to distinguish it from Classical or Byzantine or Modern Greek.


And I understand this too. I suppose one day we will think we are speaking 'correct'
English????
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#182246 - 01/31/09 06:13 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
PastorVon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8


I seem to remember the reverend who gave the invocation at
Obama's inauguration invoking Isai, Yeshua, Jesus, etc.
toward the end of the prayer. In a way, however, by doing
so he ignored many by remaining totally in his own faith.
Not bad necessarily, just interesting.


Actually, Pastor Warren invoked the name of Jesus relatively early in his prayer and, while doing so, personalized it so as to attempt to remove an offense against those who might not appreciate a specifically Christian prayer.

Ironically, there is something about Christian prayer that is overlooked in the entire discussion (debate? argument?) because of a general ignorance of Christian doctrine, especially within the media. The fact of the matter is that when a Christian prays, he always invokes the Triune God, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit,) whether the person specifically vocalizes the words "in the name of Jesus, etc." or not.

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#182247 - 01/31/09 06:16 PM Re: Cancer [Re: quizzersapru]
PastorVon Offline
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Originally Posted By: quizzersapru
Well, I am not only interested in etymology, but am also a practising radiation oncologist. There are loads of medical books explaining the etymology of "cancer". "Cancer" or the Greek "Canker" means "crab". Although one is not certain who coined this term, most books agree on Galen (which is sort of ironic, as he was a Roman physician and chose a Greek root; but then doctors have always loved esoteria... :-) ) Anyway, the term comes from the descriptive pathology of a usual malignant tumour (malignant is important, because you cannot/should not term benign lesions as cancer; and more importantly, or relevantly, the ancient ones recognised the entity of malignant & benign, and chose to name only the malignant one as "cancer"!) which spreads its claws in all directions, much like a crab, and has a tenacious tendency to hold on to the parent tissue even when resected, again like the creature.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.


Has anyone connected the dots in this discussion by chasing down the possible link with the Zodiac? Why cancer?

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#182248 - 01/31/09 06:24 PM Re: Cancer [Re: PastorVon]
zmjezhd Offline
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The fact of the matter is that when a Christian prays, he always invokes the Triune God, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

I was under the impression that there were some non-trinitarian sects of Christianity about. Or are all the heretics extinct. (I thought of Arians (like Ulfilas the Goth) and the Ebionites.)
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#182249 - 01/31/09 06:44 PM Re: Cancer [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Me too. Non-trinitarians who, e.g., baptize only in the name
of the Lord Jesus. No trinity mentioned despite the words
of Jesus to 'baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit?"
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#182254 - 01/31/09 10:53 PM Re: Cancer [Re: PastorVon]
Faldage Offline
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Originally Posted By: PastorVon


Actually, Pastor Warren invoked the name of Jesus relatively early in his prayer and, while doing so, personalized it so as to attempt to remove an offense against those who might not appreciate a specifically Christian prayer.


I'm not sure what it was in his invocation that counts as invoking the name of Jesus early in the prayer unless it was the mention of "[a]lmighty God, our Father". Perhaps you can enlighten me.

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#182257 - 02/01/09 01:49 AM Re: Cancer [Re: zmjezhd]
The Pook Offline
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Registered: 02/20/08
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Loc: Tasmania
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
The fact of the matter is that when a Christian prays, he always invokes the Triune God, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

I was under the impression that there were some non-trinitarian sects of Christianity about. Or are all the heretics extinct. (I thought of Arians (like Ulfilas the Goth) and the Ebionites.)

There are still plenty of non-Trinitarian groups around, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, United Pentecostals, etc. JW's are pretty similar to the ancient Arians in their doctrine of Jesus.


Edited by The Pook (02/01/09 01:50 AM)

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#182338 - 02/02/09 08:46 PM Re: Cancer [Re: The Pook]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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'
JW's baptize only in the name of the Lord Jesus. No trinity
involved.
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#182363 - 02/03/09 04:35 PM Re: Cancer [Re: The Pook]
PastorVon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: The Pook
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
The fact of the matter is that when a Christian prays, he always invokes the Triune God, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

I was under the impression that there were some non-trinitarian sects of Christianity about. Or are all the heretics extinct. (I thought of Arians (like Ulfilas the Goth) and the Ebionites.)

There are still plenty of non-Trinitarian groups around, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, United Pentecostals, etc. JW's are pretty similar to the ancient Arians in their doctrine of Jesus.


Agree with "The Pook." However, to borrow a phrase from a Christian Reformed [a Protestant denomination of American origin founded by Dutch immigrants] author whose name slips my mind right now (I think it may have been Van Baalen), these are the "step-children" of Christianity and not properly considered Christian.

To reiterate, all Christians are able to confess the so-called Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed without "crossing their fingers" whether they are Orthodox or Catholic, Roman or Protestant, Reformed or Arminian, that is, they acknowledge the God who is one God in three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, i.e., the Trinity.

If a religion cannot or does not acknowledge the Trinity, it is not Christian.

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#182365 - 02/03/09 04:38 PM Re: Cancer [Re: Faldage]
PastorVon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: PastorVon


Actually, Pastor Warren invoked the name of Jesus relatively early in his prayer and, while doing so, personalized it so as to attempt to remove an offense against those who might not appreciate a specifically Christian prayer.


I'm not sure what it was in his invocation that counts as invoking the name of Jesus early in the prayer unless it was the mention of "[a]lmighty God, our Father". Perhaps you can enlighten me.


I'll have to call up the text of Pastor Warren's prayer. When I do, I will cite the specific articulation that I consider invoked Jesus. PBP.

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#182367 - 02/03/09 04:44 PM Re: Cancer [Re: PastorVon]
PastorVon Offline
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Originally Posted By: PastorVon
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: PastorVon


Actually, Pastor Warren invoked the name of Jesus relatively early in his prayer and, while doing so, personalized it so as to attempt to remove an offense against those who might not appreciate a specifically Christian prayer.


I'm not sure what it was in his invocation that counts as invoking the name of Jesus early in the prayer unless it was the mention of "[a]lmighty God, our Father". Perhaps you can enlighten me.


I'll have to call up the text of Pastor Warren's prayer. When I do, I will cite the specific articulation that I consider invoked Jesus. PBP.


Apparently, I cannot count very well or estimate early or late; but what I was referring to occurred in the 7th paragraph of Warren's prayer. The 6th-8th paragraphs were:

"----Help us to share, to serve and to seek the common good of all. May all people of goodwill today join together to work for a more just, a more healthy and a more prosperous nation and a peaceful planet. And may we never forget that one day all nations and all people will stand accountable before you. We now commit our new president and his wife, Michelle and his daughters, Malia and Sasha, into your loving care.

"----I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus [Spanish pronunciation], Jesus, who taught us to pray:

"----'Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.' "

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#182370 - 02/03/09 05:54 PM Re: Cancer [Re: PastorVon]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Originally Posted By: PastorVon
If a religion cannot or does not acknowledge the Trinity, it is not Christian.


says you.

and this is why religious discussion is strongly discouraged on this site.
_________________________
formerly known as etaoin...

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#182371 - 02/03/09 06:00 PM Re: [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
BranShea Offline
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Quote:
says you.

and this is why religious discussion is strongly discouraged on this site.

Yes please.

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#182384 - 02/04/09 07:16 AM Re: Cancer [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
Faldage Offline
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Originally Posted By: etaoin
Originally Posted By: PastorVon
If a religion cannot or does not acknowledge the Trinity, it is not Christian.


says you.

and this is why religious discussion is strongly discouraged on this site.


I wonder what those who do not acknowledge the Trinity say about those who do.

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#182387 - 02/04/09 08:18 AM Re: Cancer [Re: Faldage]
The Pook Offline
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: etaoin
Originally Posted By: PastorVon
If a religion cannot or does not acknowledge the Trinity, it is not Christian.


says you.

and this is why religious discussion is strongly discouraged on this site.


I wonder what those who do not acknowledge the Trinity say about those who do.

It varies. Some say we Trinitarians are followers of the devil. Others that we are just a bit misled or silly.

Historically, the vast majority of Christians in the history of the world have regarded belief in the Triune nature of God as one of the touchstones of normal Christian belief. It is one of the few things that Orthodox, Protestants and Catholics all hold. Whether our belief is true is a question outside the bounds of this forum, but Von is right that most Christians would regard non-Trinitarians as outside the Christian Church. We are possibly sailing a bit close to the wind here, however no harm done since it has been a perfectly polite and non-argumentative discussion and the purpose of that rule is to avoid arguments.

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#182394 - 02/04/09 11:57 AM Re: Cancer [Re: Faldage]
PastorVon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/08
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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: etaoin
Originally Posted By: PastorVon
If a religion cannot or does not acknowledge the Trinity, it is not Christian.


says you.

and this is why religious discussion is strongly discouraged on this site.


I wonder what those who do not acknowledge the Trinity say about those who do.


I certainly cannot speak *for* all of them; but I know some who acknowledge that Christians *are* Christians if they believe that God is a Triune God, a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The rub is that such people would say that Christianity is not *the* true religion in which to trust.

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#182398 - 02/04/09 01:51 PM Re: Cancer [Re: PastorVon]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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To say nothing of Chacedonians, Nestorians, Monophysites.
I'm with etaoin: out of here for now.
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#182408 - 02/04/09 06:22 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
The Pook Offline
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Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8

To say nothing of Chacedonians, Nestorians, Monophysites.
I'm with etaoin: out of here for now.

Actually (getting back to the words themselves...) that raises the whole interesting history of the construction of words to describe heterodox and orthodox beliefs (even those two words are interesting as well).

That would be Chalcedonians I presume, btw. grin

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#182419 - 02/04/09 09:18 PM Re: Cancer [Re: The Pook]
Faldage Offline
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Shouldn't the opposite of heterodox be homodox? And the opposite of orthodox would be levodox.

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#182421 - 02/04/09 10:26 PM (alert: nerd joke) [Re: Faldage]
wofahulicodoc Offline
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from biology to organic chemistry:

Must things always be either/or ? if you add two radicals to a six-cornered benzene ring you can put them in positions called ortho- (adjacent) or para- (opposite) or meta- (separated by one). Then you can have "orthodox" and "paradox" and "metaphysicians" (ducking-to-avoid-the-thrown-vegetables smiley)

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#182428 - 02/05/09 09:48 AM Re: (alert: nerd joke) [Re: wofahulicodoc]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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heh
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formerly known as etaoin...

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#182441 - 02/05/09 09:47 PM follow-up [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
wofahulicodoc Offline
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it seems to be going around. I just found this on Google, and it was posted January 29, 2009, it says. And I see this very thread is on there too (googled "orthodox paradox metaphysicians"), and I posted it less than 24 hours ago. I had no idea Google was that efficient...maybe that's what the visiting Spiders do?

Incidentally - when I first came across that joke many years ago the add-on was not "-DOC" but "-MD." Same translation, though.


Edited by wofahulicodoc (02/05/09 09:48 PM)
Edit Reason: Nope - it was Jan 31!

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#182467 - 02/07/09 04:36 PM Re: follow-up [Re: wofahulicodoc]
BranShea Offline
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Those spiders are so fast that sometimes you find something out there you hadn't even written yet. (*_-)

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#182469 - 02/08/09 10:09 AM the care and feeding of spiders [Re: BranShea]
wofahulicodoc Offline
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They must have been grown up eating thiotimoline

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#194657 - 12/07/10 04:27 AM Re: Cancer [Re: Gizmo]
miramar Offline
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Posts: 1
Great discussion.

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#194661 - 12/07/10 11:01 AM Re: Cancer [Re: miramar]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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WELCOME MIRAMAR

But no one has added anything since Feb 09 to this thread.
Maybe you could contribute and get it going again.
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#194665 - 12/07/10 12:26 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
snoot Offline
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Posts: 74
You mean that just saying 'Welcome' doesn't add anything to the dialectic of the forum?
/sarcasm
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#194667 - 12/07/10 12:37 PM Re: Cancer [Re: snoot]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Hi there, guess I have not met you before. Appreciate
the comment and the sarcasm.
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#194669 - 12/07/10 12:41 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
bexter Offline
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It seems to me that this topic has been revived...
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#194673 - 12/07/10 12:53 PM Re: Cancer [Re: bexter]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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If I knew something more about medicine, I'd contribute.
Only can put down hearsay and stuff from elsewhere.
But it is good to revive them periodically. Some
just go on ad nauseam, and others die. New life needed.
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#194676 - 12/07/10 12:58 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
bexter Offline
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Someone did mention Cancer and Zodiac maybe we can find out about that and report back...
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#194677 - 12/07/10 01:00 PM Re: Cancer [Re: bexter]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Maybe on a Wiki-something????
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#194678 - 12/07/10 01:04 PM Re: Cancer [Re: LukeJavan8]
bexter Offline
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Apparently the Cancer constellation can be traced back to the Bronze Age which I do believe came before Ancient Greece?
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#194681 - 12/07/10 04:31 PM Re: Cancer [Re: Gizmo]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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the Iron Age began around 1100, at least in Israel, and before
that it was the Bronze Age. David entered the Iron Age, whereas
his predecessor, Saul was mostly Bronze. The Philistines brought
Iron to the neighborhood. As for ancient Greeks, I'd have to
look that up
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#194684 - 12/07/10 05:39 PM Re: Cancer [Re: bexter]
zmjezhd Offline
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Apparently the Cancer constellation can be traced back to the Bronze Age which I do believe came before Ancient Greece?

Not so. Bronze Age Greece would include the Mycenaeans, whose language is extant (written on clay tablets in Linear B). Most of Homer's tales take place during the Bronze Age.
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#194699 - 12/08/10 12:54 PM Re: Cancer [Re: zmjezhd]
bexter Offline
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Ah, thank you...never was very good at putting the Ages into classical context...
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#194749 - 12/09/10 03:05 PM Re: Cancer [Re: Gizmo]
tsuwm Offline
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Registered: 04/03/00
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here's a thing:

“I believe in fate, in chance meetings, and in good fortune. I also believe in the Trinity, salvation by grace, infralapsarianism, non-Darwinian evolution, and possibly unicorns, as they are mentioned nine times in the Old Testament. I wasn’t too sure about the unicorns yet.”
-Mark Schweizer, The Mezzo Wore Mink (A Liturgical Mystery)

which of these words do you suppose I'd consider as a wwftd candidate?

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#194754 - 12/09/10 03:11 PM Re: Cancer [Re: tsuwm]
bexter Offline
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As I know what all of the words in there mean I have absolutely no idea! Perhaps
Quote:
the
? crazy
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#195235 - 12/23/10 07:13 AM much time has elapsed [Re: tsuwm]
wofahulicodoc Offline
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Ya mean there's a supralapsarianism too? "I don't believe in lapsing [is that some kind of smoky tea?], and I rise above it." ?

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#195241 - 12/23/10 10:40 AM Re: much time has elapsed [Re: wofahulicodoc]
tsuwm Offline
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Originally Posted By: wofahulicodoc
Ya mean there's a supralapsarianism too? "I don't believe in lapsing [is that some kind of smoky tea?], and I rise above it." ?


yes, there is.

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#199306 - 04/22/11 02:22 PM Re: Cancer [Re: ]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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hello Pipat2, welcome
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#201684 - 08/09/11 05:04 AM Re: Cancer [Re: Gizmo]
tsuwm Offline
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Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10513
Loc: this too shall pass
and again

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#201719 - 08/10/11 06:20 PM Re: Cancer [Re: tsuwm]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Registered: 06/24/02
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Originally Posted By: tsuwm
and again


strangely, just above Luke's post above yours is a spam post. from April!

I've done did the notification. :¬ )
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