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#16462 - 04/23/02 10:53 AM Re: Kids and school
bikermom Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/12/01
Posts: 96
Loc: Ohio, USA
The voucher system is great, if there are other schools nearby, both private and public, that your child can attend. Or if you can move to an area near the school of your choice. However, when parents live in an isolated and/or poor area, miles away from another school, there is no other option. Abeit, to spend hours in the car transporting your child back and forth. Is this what you think is ideal? I still think that parents who are involved in their kid lives, their school, their friends, and interact with their children when at home, have children who succeed no matter what. But again, if you push a child in an area that is not his learning style, but your learning and your dream, then it is a struggle. Listen, be open, look at homework, (guide them, provide resources, but don't do the work) they will blossom. And above all, remember, a teacher can only present the material, it is up to the child to listen, be curious, and to think. We all have to learn we have to do things we do not like----the child should be free to express his opinion, either to the teacher and\or to his parents. The parents should not criticize a teacher, because teaching material to a class of mostly unmotivated, listless stones, is not easy, and neither is it easy to teach a class of disruptive, whining, complaining kids who strive for attention of the wrong kind. And this is what we are creating by parents both working and\or divorcing themselves from family, home and shifting the blame on everyone else but themselves. Kids are the most important resouce and their parents are the best teachers for values, beliefs, guidance and self-esteem. Be a good mentor, set a good example however you want them to be--and they will echo your values. Set your priorities---and things will work out OK.

enthusiast
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#16463 - 04/23/02 12:47 PM Re: Kids and school
of troy Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
an other problem i see with a voucher system, is, public schools are required to accept everybody.
Your child is blind? --public school must provide a program.

Your child has an accident, or is in some way handicapped, and needs to use a wheel chair, (short term or long term)? public schools must make transportation and facilities available.

private schools? they get to pick and choose.. they can require all kids to be ambulatory, they can require parents get involved.. they don't have to have copies of braile textbooks, or other tools to meet a special childs needs..

but they do want to take public money, and then not really offer to meet the publics needs.. Like Musick, I am all for vouchers if there is a level playing field.. but if private schools get to take the easy students, and leave behind anyone who requires just a little (or maybe a lot!) of assistance to be able to meet their full potential.. not fair, and not right, and not legal!

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#16464 - 04/23/02 04:47 PM Re: Kids and school
musick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
...that the parents got a check from the state

What does this 'voucher' money represent? Isn't public education a benefit of being a US citizen, usually 'free' (I'm sure someone will provide the specific "words"). Do you get a check for not going to a public school? Kinda like getting a refund for taxes you shouldn't have to pay, but already have? Why don't they just reduce the amount of tax charged, assuming they can figure out how much school costs!

Why would anyone take their check and give it to a public school?

To bring this into a *somewhat word related discussion, what is actually® being 'vouched' for? [devil's advocate-e] hi, tsuwm


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#16465 - 04/24/02 05:25 AM Re: Level playing fields
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981
Edinburgh has in the last couple of years abolished the "assisted places scheme". This was a scheme where brighter pupils could apply for a grant to go to one of the many independent schools. The result, as far as I can see, was to bolster the results of the independent schools, by extracting many of the more able and better supported children from the state sector. This had the effect of making the results (we have league tables, based on examination results) for the state schools look even worse and making more parents keen to raft their children out. I suspect that the voucher system that you describe would have a similar effect.

In the UK in general there are very many excellent state schools. The problems tend to arise in places like London and the South East and Edinburgh where there is a long history of take up of independent sector places. In Edinburgh many of the state school buildings are poorly built and lack facilities - the school that my children could attend does not have a playing field, level or otherwise. I don't have any evidence of the children from independent schools in Edinburgh being any "less rounded", to my surprise, quite the opposite.

There was an interesting article in the Guardian last week which claimed that many of the results from state schools in London are skewed by parents paying for tutors to improve their children's results. I tend to agree with this as I have often heard my "professional but liberal" friends in London discussing where to find a good tutor, my "professional and less liberal friends" spend their time comparing independent school results. http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,680734,00.html

It stikes me that, much as I dislike it, the "level playing" field concept works against the laws of human nature, where people are in favour of it until it starts to cause problems for the future levels of achievement of their own children and they have to put their hands in their pocket.

There was a report yesterday that some pupils were moving back into the state sector as Oxford and Cambridge were committed to increasing their intake of state school pupils, it remains to be seen if this will have a long-term impact. {I'll add a link to this news story if I find it.)


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#16466 - 04/24/02 02:54 PM Post deleted by ewein
ewein Offline
member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 184
Loc: USA

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#16467 - 04/24/02 10:40 PM Re: Kids and school
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
WW notes, "Standards are currently mandated in many states."

In Maryland, not only are standards mandated, but the legislature (the biggest collection of useless pinheads on the face of the planet) has also, imitating other states, mandated tests at various levels (3rd grade, 8th grade, 11th grade, I believe) to check on the schools' performance in teaching the mandated content. This has resulted in the phenomenon of "teaching to the test". In order to have students score as high as possible, teachers, with the support (nay, the direction) of principals, spend their time teaching only what will be covered by the tests, so as to have maximum time to cram the kids for the test. Anything not expected to be on the test is rigorously excluded, as taking up valuable time for no good end.


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#16468 - 04/24/02 11:51 PM Re: Level playing fields
Jazzoctopus Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 1094
Loc: Cincinnati & Loveland, Ohio, U...
Just a thought,

I don't think the argument in the US against vouchers really has much to do with giving students state money to go elsewhere or that it will make situations uneven. The main problem people have with it is that almost every private school in the US is affiliated with a religious organization, generally the Catholic church I believe (at least most are around Cinci) and that raises the question of that wall between church and state. It's perceived by many (and not unjustifiably so) that giving students money to spend at a religious private school results in the state funding a religious organization, because obviously the funding they get isn't only spent on education.


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#16469 - 04/25/02 11:54 AM Re: Level playing fields
musick Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
...And, no Musick, people couldn't use the check for something else thus the term "voucher".

No, ewein. You've misinterpreted if you think that was my intent. What I said was, "Why would anyone take their check and give it to a public school?(EA) Plus I added a "laugh" at the end. (Another emoticon bites the dust)

Jazz - Thanks for clearing things up for us.

However, being religious and going to a religious school are two clearly different things, and the mass (all puns intended) support from far reaching organizations (such as *religious ones) are clearly offering many advantages, and I believe this is the bigger issue. The church and state are as seperate as the people within seperate them, and the arguement of "seperation of church and state" is convenient for *'freedom loving people', but inherently flawed for those that actually do divide the church from their *state.


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#16470 - 04/25/02 04:56 PM Post deleted by ewein
ewein Offline
member

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 184
Loc: USA

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#16471 - 04/25/02 06:31 PM Re: Level playing fields
of troy Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
Yes, Jazzo, Catholic parochial school are a big group of private schools.. but only in the North east..and in NY, there are almost as many yeshiva schools--and comming up quickly, are islamic schools. Not to mention, at least on the elementary level, many other striped of christianity, Luthern, baptist, and jehovahs witnesses come to mind, but i expect there are plenty of others.

and yes, that is an issue.. should public money go to parochial schools.

which reminds me.. parochial1) of or in a parish or parishes; 2) restricted to a small area or scope, narrow, limited, provincial( a parochial outlook).

I attended a catholic elementary school, and public HS, and let me tell you, catholic schools are often parochial in the second sense, sometime even more than in the first sense of the word.

religious schools have a seperate agenda, aside from education and it is their first priority.

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