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If this is a YART, let me know, as it seems like you all would have been down this road before, but I wanted to air a peeve of mine.
I hear people saying and writing "acronym" when they mean "abbreviation" so often it drives me mad.
Is the view of the wordies present that an acronym is itself a word, composed of the initial letters of a series of words (e.g. scuba = self-contained underwater breathing apparatus), and that an abbreviation is imply the initial letters, lined up and pronounced individually (e.g. PC = personal computer, and is not pronounced 'pik')?
/rant
As a side not to this, English seems to limit itself in terms of acronym formation more than other languages I'm familiar with. Spanish is great for taking as many letters from the front of a word as it needs to make a pronounceable acronym, where English almost always seems to only take the first letter.
As an example, PROFEPA stands for Procuraduría Federal de Protección Ambiental (a Mexican government agency - Attorney General for Environmental Protection). The acronym uses three letters of the first word, two letters of the second, and one from each of the last two, in order to be pronounceable in Spanish.
Perhaps this stems from the fact the English has so many different pronunciations of letters, based on what they're next to, combined with, etc., that English-speakers can always just take a go at pronouncing it, whereas Spanish has basically one sound for each letter. Dunno.
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Hyla asks: Is the view of the wordies present that an acronym is itself a word?
Or at least something pronounceable. Some were abbreviations first and only later became words. Scuba is a good example as is radar, (RAdio Detection And Ranging) and laser. The OED supplement even recognizes the back-formed verb lase. In the area of local NYS government SEQR stands for State Environmental Quality Review and is pronounced [seeker]. The ones I like are acronyms in which the first word of the expansion is the same as the abbreviation. NEAR stands for Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous.
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Those of us in the IT industry daily have to pick out what an acronym stands for from the context. The feasible limits (particularly of the TLA - three-letter acronym) have been reached and we're now recycling them, often before the first use has been abandoned. Sometimes these multiple definitions fall within the same area of IT and can be used adjacently. It was suggested once that to combat this IT people need to adopt a tonal variation of English where you pitch your vocalisation of a TLA at a particular tone for each specific meaning. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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speaking to Hyla's point, it would seem that TLA would be an abbreviation, rather than being self-referential (unless you have some clever pronunciation for TLA). 
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Thank you, Hyla, for picking up on something that has mildly irritated me for years.
Strictly speaking, I think and acronym should be a set of initials that spell a word already in the lexicon, but I am quite prepared to accept the term for pronounceable words - especailly if they then become accepted as words in their own right.
But a list of initials is a list of initials - not even really an abbreviation.
/rant
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In reply to:
But a list of initials is a list of initials - not even really an abbreviation.
What about morphing lists of initials? I'm tthinking of "words" like "scuzzie" for SCSI. Then there's wysiwyg, which sounds like it could be an enquiry into a man's political affiliation.
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I think you'd do better to save yourselves the angst and get used the misuse - it's entrenched. Move onto a bigger battle.
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Strictly speaking, I think and acronym should be a set of initials that spell a word already in the lexicon, but I am quite prepared to accept the term for pronounceable words
At the risk of picking nits, I'd say there are some pretty well-established acronyms (scuba, radar, laser) that have become words in the lexicon, but that would not have qualified as acronyms under your description. I guess I want to see acronym used properly because I really like the creation of a word in such a way, and its meaning is lessened when it applies to any abbreviation.
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I think you'd do better to save yourselves the angst and get used the misuse - it's entrenched. Move onto a bigger battle.I do hate painful truths like this. Aren't most of the battles that we discuss on this board fairly small individually, but add up to a larger war against garbage usage? (A bit dramatic a metaphor ) On the side note I raised in my original post, about how different languages form acronyms - any experience people have in other languages with this?
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>how different languages form acronyms - any experience people have in other languages with this?
Hello again Hyla,
More as an aside than anything else, I seem to recall my French teacher explaining that the model designations of Citroens of the era (at least a couple of them, anyway - I don't know if the company continued the practice, or even if the company continued!) formed words when the letters were pronounced (in French of course!):
ID = idée [ee-day] = idea
DS = déesse [day-ess]= goddess
I have heard similar stories about car models in English, eg SX is meant to sound like "sex" (the word, not the activity!), although I would have thought it's Essex!
But I guess these don't qualify as acronyms, since the ploy relies on pronouncing the individual letters not the "word" thus formed, and they aren't formed from the initial letters of words, as far as I know.
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Hyla asked different languages form acronyms - any experience people have in other languages with this?
I remember being surprised when I finally learned, in my early twenties that the "Alfa" in "Alfa Romeo" is an acronym. Since my Italian is worse than my English, I'll leave to it Emanuela to give the deails.
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MaxQ contributes: "scuzzie" for SCSI
PCMCIA is, I believe, normally pronounced pee-cee-em-cee-aye-ay, but where I work we had a period when we were pronouncing it pick-mick-ee-uh. We still do occasionally. In a similar vein, ASCII is pronounced ass-key.
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Faldage offered In a similar vein, ASCII is pronounced ass-key.But of course. How else would one say it?  What, though, should one call such adaptations?
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My favorite IT acronym is TWAIN--many of you with scanners will might have come accross TWAIN--
which is short for Technology Without Any Interesting Name.
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I especially like NOAA (pronounced Noah like the ark builder) for National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Pretty and particularly apt I would say.
wow
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Acronyms in other languages
Italians are fond of acronyms, especially in regard to govenment & politics. I subscribe to a newsletter in Italian which comes on the net daily and am often at sea because of the acronyms for political parties (of which the Italians have a large supply) and govt. agencies (even larger supply). Many of these do not appear to be pronouncible, but I know that they are pronounced as words, not as a string of letters.
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Not sure about the Alfa, but Fiat stands for (oh I hope I have this right) something like Federazion International Automobile Tourino. It had never dawned on me that it was an acronym, since it was commonly spelled Fiat instead of FIAT. In looking at the words for FIAT I know they aren't right, but it's something like that.
TEd
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She of the profession that launched a thousand acronyms proclaims: My favorite IT acronym is TWAIN--many of you with scanners will might have come accross TWAIN--
which is short for Technology Without Any Interesting Name.
My favourite has been and remains WYSIWYG, pronounced "wizeewig". "What You See Is What You Get". I sometimes think it's IT's only meaningful contribution to the language.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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CapK plagiaristically opined My favourite has been and remains WYSIWYG, pronounced "wizeewig". "What You See Is What You Get". I sometimes think it's IT's only meaningful contribution to the language.[petulant harumphing emoticon] Yes, and meanwhile, my little foray into TEd's pundom with WYSIWYG has gone completely unremarked upon. And this after publicly exposing myself simply to offer you a palliative - what a disgraceful injustice!
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Regarding my comment on the pronounciation of ASCII, MaxQ ponders: "But of course. How else would one say it?
It's the question of a C before an I which should be prononuced as an S, giving us ass-see or ass-eye.
Another problem I run into when I am wearing my proofreader's hat is whether a pronounceable abbreviation is pronounced as a word or with its letters when the initial letter is one in which is pronounced with a vowel sound but represents a consonant sound, e.g., HID (Human Interface Device). I'll see that in an engineer's report as a HID or an HID, sometimes both ways in the same engineer's report. That means I have to track down a representative cross section of engineers to tell me whether it's pronounced [hid] or [aitch-eye-dee]
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Max: Sorry, didn't see your contribution to WYSIWYG. Would not have stolen your thunder if I had, I would have attributed it to you. My opinion remains ... Faldage: If you use 4-bit encoding for ASCII instead of 7 or 8, and also use your proclaimed correction pronunciation, would that make the acronym half-assed? 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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In reply to:
FIAT
Fabbrica Italiana d"Automobili di Torino
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In reply to:
FIAT
Fabbrica Italiana d"Automobili di Torino
And for anybody interested:
The Darracq factory that had been built in the Portello district of Milan was then sold to a group of Italian car enthusiasts who called themselves the 'Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili' (ALFA) in 1910.
Oh, and YAY ME!
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>[petulant harumphing emoticon] Yes, and meanwhile, my little foray into TEd's pundom with WYSIWYG has gone completely unremarked upon
Ah, not unnoticed, but unremarked upon. And now, the rest of this tory.
TEd
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In reply to:
And for anybody interested:
The Darracq factory that had been built in the Portello district of Milan was then sold to a group of Italian car enthusiasts who called themselves the 'Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili' (ALFA) in 1910.
Well, hmmm, ummm, actually, no, we weren't, very. Well, ahhhh, maybe just a little ... nope, not at all, as a matter of fact!   Unless, of course, it comes with a complimentary Maranello ...
And I'm glad to see you've managed to kick your habit!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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>Well, hmmm, ummm, actually, no, we weren't, very. Well, ahhhh, maybe just a little ... nope, not at all ...
Ahem, ahem ... I was interested she squeaked!
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In reply to:
IITYWYBMAD is the acronym for this thread.
It's too early on a Sunday morning for my tired brain - I give up!
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Poster: Max Quordlepleen
Subject: Re: anybody interested
In reply to:
IITYWYBMAD is the acronym for this thread.
It's too early on a Sunday morning for my tired brain - I give up!
If I tell you, will you buy me a drink?
wow
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If I tell you, will you buy me a drink?
wow
OIYBMASMIR
lusy (home is the hunter)
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WBL-LTNS!
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Tnx Max
IGTBB. In fact IBGTBB!
lusy
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lusy, oh, my sweet lusy, I'll buy you any drinks you want!
I am SO GLAD you're back! ILY!
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Sorry I mentioned it. [sigh] Any enthusiast-or-above regular posting board member who travels to my neighborhood is assured of a drink bought by your truly. Have to have a cut-off or I'd be over the hill to the Poor House.  wow
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Any enthusiast-or-above regular posting board member who travels to my neighborhood is assured of a drink bought by your truly.Even if we're under 21?
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is assured of a drink bought by your truly.
Even if we're under 21? Water is a drink. Over 21-year-olds may put single malt in it or whatever else takes their fancy. As to fruit : in the words of the great Tallulah Bankhead, when observed having an Old Fashioned for breakfast, "Dahhhling ...all that fruit! It's so good for you." However, I draw the line at little umbrellas. wow
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However, I draw the line at little umbrellas.
I had a lady friend once who had the irritating habit of collecting those damned things. It was irritating mainly because they usually only come in very expensive cocktails ... and in those days going Dutch was not the usual thing.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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>Even if we're under 21?
Cultural aside here:
I find it really strange that it is not possible to buy alcohol under the age of 21 in the USA (I thought it was only California but now I am told that it is everywhere.) Does this mean that if you are under 21 and had your wedding reception in a bar open to the public (less usual these days but not all that rare) then you would not be able drink at your own wedding? By that age you would have been allowed to vote, carry a gun, go to prison, drive a car, have a baby?
Does this mean that is possible to go through university without an alcoholic drink? To me, this is inconceivable. (I include Budweiser here as I am told that it does contain alcohol.) How on earth to people manage not to break the law?
Bemused of Essex
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Not breaking the law is not an option...(for those who wish) I don't believe I have ever been to a public wedding (I've performed at quite a lot), however, "the spirit of the law" is generally followed by the "authorities" (or you would have a mob action) You forgot the most impotent "go to war" (so your alcoholic half-uncle can beat his wife in peace... (did I say that?(waking up confused emoticon))) JK (just-kidding)
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To dear jmh...
Even though it is illegal, many college students obtain and consume alcoholic beverages. If the police arrive on the scene (noisy party complaint?) the underage drinkers could be arrested for illegal possession of an alcoholic beverage, a misdemeanor generally carrying just a fine.
As to weddings: they are private parties for the most part in USA and I think there is something about "married persons" being legal adults but whether or not it applies to "drinking" I dunno.
For heaven's sake ... don't tell me there isn't there a Board contributor who has an attorney Mom or Dad?
Is there a lawyer in the house?
wow
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>Even though it is illegal, many college students obtain and consume alcoholic beverages. If the police arrive...
I suppose that I was being flippant (although I really am not sure that I could have got through without alcohol). I'm sure that some of the things that I think are perfectly acceptable will seem strange to others. I think that the whole structure of student social life when I was a student revolved around "going down the pub". It may have just been for an hour from 10pm until closing time at 11pm and rarely involved drunken behaviour or it could have been for an hour or so after lectures in the Students Union bar. It seems strange that we could have been looking over our shoulders in case there was a police raid in the same way as if we'd been dealing in Class A drugs.
I think that the "pub" is a rather different place here than a bar in America. In most of the places where I have lived we regularly take the children for lunch in the pub, I don't remember being worried about the effect it may be having on their moral fibre.
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In reply to:
how different languages form acronyms - any experience people have in other languages with this?
This is a very productive method of word formation in Indonesian. I've mentioned warnet (warung internet internet kiosk) before. Most provinces and some smaller administrative districts have official acronyms: I live in Jaksel (Jakarta Selatan = South Jakarta, and work in Jakpus (Jakarta Pusat = Central Jakarta). Batagor = bakso dan tahu goreng (fried meat or fish balls and tofu) is a popular snack.
Initialisms are also popular, such as the slang term ABG anak baru gede newly big child = someone in their late teens.
Bureaucrats love them. I sometimes think they must spend half their time dreaming up acronymic titles for themselves, such as Kakanwil Kepala kantor wilayah = head of regional office.
Numbers can also be used in initialisms, e.g., P4D Panitia Penyelesaian Perselisihan Perburuhan Daerah Local Committee for the Resolution of Labour Disputes (or as Enigma would have it: Panned peony Persephone perceivable Daffodil (and they said poetry was dead!)).
Bingley
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<Settling powdered wig firmly on head and adjusting robe in preparation for lecture>
With the repeal of national prohibition, the United States Constitution was amended to provide that the "transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited." US Const, Am XXI.
This provision was included in the repeal of prohibition to afford independent authority to the various states to regulate the production and use of alcohol. Because the authority is specified in the federal constitution, it exists on equal footing with other constitutional provisions and is not easily limited. The resultant laws vary not only from state to state, but in some places, from county to county or city to city.
In Michigan, which is one of 18 states known as "control" states, the manufacture, sale and consumption of alcohol is closely controlled, and every bottle which comes into the state is wholesaled by the state and is highly taxed. The legal drinking age is 21, with limited exceptions, such as certain educational and religious uses. MCL 436.33b(13).
It matters not to the policymakers that persons who are regarded as too young to responsibly consume alcohol are legally old enough to serve in the military, marry, contract, be employed, or otherwise go about their adult lives; the regulation of alcohol generates revenue. There is a good argument to be made that strict controls only make alcohol an object of desire and its use a right of passage, and, consequently, render our teens alcohol abusers. But, the standard for strict control of alcohol was established by the cultural descendents of Puritans, and that cultural standard combines with the monetary interests of the states to perpetuate the situation.
I prefer a more sensible approach. Recently, when my three-year-old son kept trying to help himself to a glass of Chardonnay my husband was drinking, I poured some in a separate cup for him and let him have a sip. He took one taste, his whole body shuddered, and he walked over and dumped the contents of the cup down the drain. And that will be the last time he thinks alcohol is the thing for quite some time.
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IITYWYBMAD is the acronym for this thread.
Two questions about this:
1. Whatever does it mean? I'm just back from a long weekend, and the synapses are occasionally shooting off a random spark, but certainly not firing sufficiently to work this out.
2. If it is indeed an acronym, how does one pronounce it?
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If I tell you will you buy me a drink?
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If I tell you will you buy me a drink?Ouch! I had actually already read the answer, and still didn't get it. Better send them synapses in for a complete overhaul.
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>It matters not to the policymakers that persons who are regarded as too young to responsibly consume alcohol are legally old enough to ....
But, Sparteye, the policymakers here in the US are (and always have been) the people themselves. If they felt strongly enough about it, they could elect legislators who would change the legal drinking age to 7. Or to 150, which is basically what happened with the Great Experiment, as I believe it was caused.
Who was it that said a Baptist was a person who was terrified that somewhere, somehow, there just might be someone who was having fun???
TEd
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A lot of people disregard many laws daily, for they know well "the spirit of the law" has not been broken. One's ability to make this "judgement" has become the issue, yet, those that did it for "us" aren't around anymore to see what is left of that spirit. That's why "created equal" is again (and again and again and...) in question.
I've got a "new" word for "us" to ponder.
CLASSHOLE
Jackie - I'm having a day off - - - really
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But, Sparteye, the policymakers here in the US are (and always have been) the people themselves. If they felt strongly enough about it, they could elect legislators who would change the legal drinking age to 7. Or to 150, which is basically what happened with the Great Experiment, as I believe it was caused.Those civics classes weren't wasted on you, were they? I just love to see a true believer in action!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Carpal Tunnel
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Today's newspaper, in a very timely manner, mentions that three small towns in Kentucky are voting on whether to be
"wet" or "dry". Little old lady says the town's been fine without liquor for 150 yrs., why bring it in now to risk
moral decay. Next-door neighbor says, because all the people go spend their money in the nearest town where they can buy a drink.
They may indeed elect new officials next time, Ted.
On to a musick note: good, connotative word, Dearest!
I, too, seem to be taking a day off of everything but this board! (Conscience, get thee behind me.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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(Conscience, get thee behind me.)Jackie - Reminds me of the preacher's wife who came home with a new dress. "I couldn't resist the temptation," the wife said. "You should have told the devil to get behind you," said the Preacher. "I did, dear, but the Devil told me 'It looks lovely from the back, too'" RE LIQUOR. In New Hampshire, 1973 I think, the state legislature lowered the drinking age from 21 to 18. After a couple of years the 21-to-drink was reinstated and there it stays. NH also has state controlled liquor. The prices, should you be in the neighborhood, are VERY reasonable. The state in days past was big on painting things a deep green, including the doors of the State Liquor Stores. Now, here's one more bit of info which I will tie in, your honor, if you'll grant me a litle leeway. During Prohibition liquor could be legally obtained for "medical reasons" with a prescription from an MD. The natural outcome of these seemingly unrelated items is that a run to the liquor store in New Hampshire is often euphemistically called "a trip to see Doc Green." It keeps the Johnny-come-latelys confused. wow
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addict
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OP
addict
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a trip to see Doc Green
Whereas in Massachusetts, we referred to the liquor store as the "package store" (I would be very grateful to anyone who comes up with an explanation of that one), so going out to get beer, wine, anything alcoholic, was called a "packy run."
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Carpal Tunnel
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There are two (main) types of liquor licenses here in Chi-Town; 1) the kind that allows you to buy in bulk and serve out of kegs through a tap or by the glass wine, and 2)the kind called a "packaged goods" license, where everything leaves in a brown bag (or plastic). This is why it was called "brown bagging it" (walking down the street and drinking from a bottle you just bought). I've never done that !
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Pooh-Bah
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Yes, as musick notes about Chicago, liquor licenses typically distinguish between for-consumption-on-the-premises and alcohol-in-a-package-for-consumption-off-the-premises. So, Hyla's trip to the package store is to buy booze in a bottle to take home. Some states will allow the two to mix, such as restaurants where you can bring your own wine, but in Michigan and other places, you can only consume alcohol on a licensed premises which is furnished by the licensee per the scope of the license.
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Carpal Tunnel
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In New Zealand, liquor licensing used to be just about the toughest in the known world. A series of reforms has seen the legal drinking age come down to 18, riddled with exceptions, and supermarkets and bottlestores vie to flog beer and wine. Hard liquor appears to remain the province of liquor retailing specialists, but now that licensing hours are virtually 24 x 7, you can basically get anything you want whenever you want it.
Not altogether sure that this is actually a good thing, by the way. Reporting, not editorialising, Wow!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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The times mosr certainly do seem to be a'changin', all over the place.
When I was first starting to drink in pubs, closing time was 10pm during the week, 10.30 on Saturday and it was strictly enforced by the police. "Lock-ins" - i.e. after hours drinking - did occur, but only among close friends of the landlord who could be relied on not to talk about it outside. (You were, literally, locked i to the pub and only allowed out after the landlord had checked that the coast was clear!)
Three months ago, the Landlord of the "Green Dragon" had a call from the police, during the afternoon, who pointed out to him that closing time is 11pm, and they would be greatly obliged if he would make sure that his curtains were closed after that time so that they could not see into the bar as they drove past at 2am.
Many places have licences to 2am, now and the police are no longer interested in trying to maintain a law that has fallen in to disuetude and disrepute.
It seems that 24x7 licencing is just round the corner for the UK, too.
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Carpal Tunnel
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The state of NJ still has dry counties, and it has very high taxes on liquor in those counties that are wet-- some jersey residents have taken to driving to Maryland to by liquor cheaper. Its not illegal to do, if you then notify NJ tax authority and pay the extra tax (yeah, right!)
So NJ started to send "spy's" to the liquor stores near the border, and write down the plate numbers, and or follow NJ residents home-- as they crossed the border, they would be stopped-- and assessed the taxes on the spot in the form of a fine.
So, NJ residents started to drive from Maryland to Pennsylvania and then to NJ. the longer route made it almost impossbile for cops to track them--So the Jersey cops started to stop NJ drivers as they left Maryland, and entered PA. PA Attorney General put a stop to it, (only permitted for NJ cops to arrest in PA if they are in "Hot Pursuit".)
State of Maryland had no comment. all this occured about 10 years ago-- NJ residents still drive to Maryland to buy liquor.
Some people don't realize that South Jersey is the northern edge of the bible belt!
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Carpal Tunnel
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musick comments: (walking down the street and drinking from a bottle you just bought). and says that he has never done it.
Neither have I. Now sitting on a curb (kerb, for the True English Challenged) drinking from a bottle in a bag that someone else has (I assume) bought, that's a different story.
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well our fool is no fool! Its illegal to walk down the street "brown bagging" in NY (it is illegal to walk or drive with an open bottle of alcohol)--so 1) people "brown bag" 2) the sit down on a bench, or stoop, curb or lean against a car-- so they are not walking and drinking at the same time!
it illegal to "brown bag" on the subway, but commutor trains have either bar cars, or kiosks on the platforms before you board the train (for purchasing a drink to go) -- a case of economic discrimination. (commutor trains are about 3 times as expensive as subway) Because of this, LIRR is prefered way to get to Shea stadium, rather than the (in)famous #7 train-- fans can get a head start before they get to game.
No one on the board from the big easy, huh? They have Take out shops-- bars have store windows that will sell beer and other drinks to patrons on the street-- NY's Pizza restraunts often have "take out windows" where you can by a slice, or in the summer an italian ice with out actally entering the store. In NO's, the bars/package shops have the same feature! and you can drink legally on the street.
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old hand
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old hand
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of troy stated: NJ residents still drive to Maryland to buy liquor.
Sounds like a lot of trouble for such a rotten drug.
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Carpal Tunnel
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wow:
Interesting bit of trivia, that!
Virginia kept very tight control on sales of wine and distilled spirits for many years, and still controls spirits. The control was so tight that every ABC store in the state was exactly the same, right down to the size of the store (to the nearest inch!). I know personally of a storefront that was built in a shopping center that was two inches too wide and the Alcoholic Beverage Commission (ABC) refused to sign the lease. The landlord was able to move the walls in an inch on each side (it was not acceptable to move one wall in two inches, but if it had been an inch to narrow they would have had a really large problem!)
Each store had two entry doors, at the front corners, with glass blocks instead of window up to about eye level between the doors. Inside, there were two price lists, one on each side wall, then a counter with one walkthrough, which had to be on the left, with a gate top which had to have the hinge on the left. The store clerk took your order then went to the shelves in the back of the store and retrieved your selection. It was so regimented that each brand and size of booze had a specific place on the shelving. Clerks could not move the more popular stuff up front because the rules told them where to store it and they risked firing if they deviated.
I worked several Christmases at one during the late 60s, so I know this is all true.
Now, wine sales are deregulated to a great extent, but the monopoly on hard liquor sales remains to this day so far as I know. Most of the stores have been converted to self-service, though, so you no longer have a clerk running to get your pint of Jim Beam.
But those laws and regs are nothing compared to Utah. The liquor rules there are REALLY strange. So strange in fact that one store I went into had a sign: If you think your liquor laws are strange you should see our underware!
Ted
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