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#147628 - 09/09/05 08:48 AM Re: I don't get it.
inselpeter Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 2379
Loc: New York City
>extraneous tease<

Dang, never even noticed it!


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#147629 - 09/09/05 08:48 AM Re: I don't get it.
wsieber Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1026
Loc: Switzerland
"sidero-" means both (iron and star)
Tempting .. in the meantime I found this:
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Humanities/TechnologyGrecoRoman.html
but I find this explanation improbable, bordering on spurious..


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#147630 - 09/09/05 08:55 AM Re: I don't get it.
inselpeter Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 2379
Loc: New York City
>>I find this<<

Interesting article. "Unimportant" though? To whom? Specific iron meteorites were *very* important to certain tribes that used them to forge tools, esp. weapons, from.


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#147631 - 09/09/05 10:27 AM Re: false cognates
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
but I find this explanation improbable, bordering on spurious

As the author points out, finding Greek σιδηρος (sideros) 'iron' and Latin sidus, -eris, 'star, constellation' cognates goes against how Greek and Latin developed phonologically. Latin sidus has been compared to the Germanic words for silver and slag, but those comparisons are not without problems, too. In the end the usually PIE root suggested (by Buck, Walde, Pokorny, et al.) is *sueid- 'to glow'. (Also, the -r- in the Latin word is probably a result of rhotacization (-VsV- => -VrV-).) The Greek word has no appealing etymology, and is thought to be a loan from some unknown language. A terminus post quem for the borrowing would be the (hypothesized) time of sV- => hV- in Greek historical phonology.

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#147632 - 09/09/05 02:21 PM Re: false cognates
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10513
Loc: this too shall pass
> I'm asking about the make-up of the words siderurgy and siderated as per ullrich's original post. I'm astsuming the root is the tsame.

in other words, coming full circle, that was a bad astsumptsion.
<g>


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#147633 - 09/09/05 03:43 PM Re: I don't get it.
sjmaxq Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 3230
Loc: Te Ika a Maui
>that used them to forge tools, esp. weapons, from.


If they had the iron, why not make real tools from it?


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#147634 - 09/09/05 08:07 PM after considering all this I am unsure
wofahulicodoc Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 4772
Loc: Worcester, MA
Re: siderated: "Ill-fated" or "blasted" ?

...So when used to mean "struck with lightning" it is synonymous with "unlucky" in the sense of being "star-crossed" or merely "blasted"


Then where do all the positive the words like "considerate" come from? Are we to conclude that "con-" here means not "with" but rather "against", the opposite of "pro" = for? Or is there a considerably different root here altogether?

All of those don't seem to have much relationship to "sider-" = iron or star, either.



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#147635 - 09/09/05 08:11 PM Re: I don't get it.
belMarduk Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/28/00
Posts: 2891
Sidérer is a very common French term that means "struck down with awe" in a negative manner. A person will be sidéré if he loses his job suddenly.


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#147636 - 09/09/05 08:21 PM Re: after considering all this I am unsure
inselpeter Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 2379
Loc: New York City
>>considerate<<

Terrible guess deleted. But see "consider": intensive pref. "com" + sider (star). [prob. connected to astronomy?]


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#147637 - 09/10/05 07:46 AM O you who turn the wheel and look to windward
ullrich Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 38
"Then where do all the positive the words like "considerate" come from?"

According to my dictionary, "consider", etymologically, means: 'examine the stars' from the Latin 'considerare' and "sidus".

Perhaps in its original use, to consider something meant to consult the stars for an answer.


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