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The DUI Defendant was Taiwanese. The defense attorney was Korean. The police officer witness was some mix of European strains.
Defense counsel was hammering away at the cop for not offering the defendant an interpreter at the time of the arrest, when the defendant never showed any inability to converse in English.
"How could you NOT know that he needed an interpreter? What did he look like to you?" demanded the exasperated lawyer?
"He looked like a drunk Oriental to me," was the officer's answer.
The attorney drew back, as if in horror, and dramatically turned to me on the bench, and demanded that I strike the witness' answer and instruct the officer not to use "racist" terms in the courtroom. I think this was done/said mostly for the effect which it might have had on the jurors.
While I have an ethical duty not to permit the use of racist terms in the courtroom, I wouldn't go so far as to say that "Oriental" is one of them. Am I wrong?
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A hotbed of liberalism and politically correct tolerance (unless you're Israeli) is still calling itself the School of Oriental and African Studies, so the faculty and students there obviously don't have a problem with the word in itself.
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The orientalism which lumps all those peoples and cultures together which find themselves somewhere east of the British Isles, or, any way of the 'Occident' (hmm) as though they were one is, indeed, considered racist. But the attorney was no doubt staging a nice bit of melodrama. Though you didn't ask, and it may be presumptuous, I guess you could just note it and ask the witness to choose a different word.
VC beat me to post, so I will add that my experience at graduate school was the opposite, and students from the Middle East were offended by "orientalism."
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Oriental is now generally considered outmoded and even offensive when used of an Asian or an Asian American.offered without comment from http://www.bartleby.com/64/C006/055.html
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The point of my post was that SOAS is famously liberal (and recently defined Zionism as racist), yet hasn't changed its name, which it likely would have done were the word deemed to be intrinsically offensive.
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well, all I can judge is what some people most affected say about this label: http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/livewire/000366.phpPerhaps, when coded in to an institutional name, the cultural baggage slows down the pace of reaction to changing social mores?
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It's like referring to someone of sub-Saharan African descent. Colored is out unless you're talking about the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Negro is a little old-fashioned unless you're talking about Negro Baseball Leagues or the United Negro College Fund.
Oriental is OK if you're talking about studies of ancient cultures in Egypt or Mesopotamianss or others of that area, but not if you're talking about, ummm, what can you call them? East Asians?
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Political correctness in the United States
In the United States, some feel the terms "Orient" and "Oriental" are archaic, offensive, and/or "politically incorrect" on the basis that it was defined from a European perspective to refer to a vague and undistinguished group of people, and is therefore no longer appropriate in a modern multicultural world. Additionally, it has been used in a derogatory fashion in the United States as an ethnic slur, and those associations have remained with the term for many Asian Americans (see parallels at "nigger"). Many English speakers worldwide find nothing offensive about the term. One difficulty that the term presents, however, is that it is not always clear what is included within the term and what is not--at one time it referred primarily to the nations and people of the Middle and Near East, and this sense of the term still exists in some forms in the language (e.g., "oriental carpets"). Consequently, the term does not see as much use as the equivalent terms Asian, East Asian, and (for the archaic sense of the term that included Persia and Arabia) Middle Eastern.http://www.answers.com/topic/orientOriental Often Offensive. An Asian. [e.a.]
o'ri·en'tal·ly adv.
USAGE NOTE Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental—meaning “eastern”—is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.http://www.answers.com/topic/oriental
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I can't help but wonder whether the attorney wouldn't have done the same thing had the witness said 'drunk Asian.'
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if the witness had said "drunk Asian"
Yes, I wonder, too. I would consider the main objection to "Oriental" to be that it is too general. To say someone is an "Oriental" conveys about the same amount of information as saying he or she is "North American"; at least, I think so.
I think some of these things are fashion, too - "Black" used to be OK, so did "Negro"; in fact, I recall conversations with, um, black students who said that's what they preferred. I think it has a lot to do also with who's saying it and how.
A Caucasian friend of mine who adopted a mediaeval Japanese persona in our recreationist group always referred to himself as an "Ornamental".
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The insult must start in the mind (however small) of the speaker. A neutral term becomes offensive when it is used as an insult ofen enough to absorb a connotation of "I use this term because it describes someone whom I consider less than me". If "plaid" was coined as a perfectly friendly term for my mix of Irish and Scottish and then later used as an insult it would soon be one.
Personally, I think that the statement "He looked drunk." would have been sufficient without a racial qualifier.
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>"Black used to be OK"?
It isn't? Please don't tell me that I have start calling my Leicester-born and bred friend "African-American" - that way lies madness. In another forum, an African-American uses that term not only to describe herself, but to describe people of African ethnicity from all over the world - aaaargh!
FWIW, even though I would never use the word Oriental to describe a person, I understand what Vernon was trying to say.
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> I understand what Vernon was trying to say.
Yes, me two.
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Fr Steve:
I suspect grandstanding, but I was a bit taken aback by the comments above showing that Oriental has become at least slightly pejorative. It's PCness taken to extremes.
I think the next time someone describes me as white I am going to protest that I am not white, I'm sorta pink with some farmer tan overtones.
But no one's asked the important question: what did you rule?
TEd
TEd
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> the next time someone describes me as white
Yes, but as Zed correctly construed (imho) it depends on the phrase getting burdened with negative connotations. If a few people started using "white" to indicate someone with a small brain and bad body odour, I suspect many white people would then react differently to the word.
That's why I don't think this is 'PCness taken to extremes', and why it is important to recognise how a word feels to the recipient.
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the goal would be to never generalize, and never to lump anyone in to a particular group.
and to never say mean things about each other.
formerly known as etaoin...
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what did you rule?
I excused the jury so I could speak frankly with the lawyers outside of the jurors' presence. I scolded the defense attorney and told him that there would be no more histrionics displayed in the making of objections. I also told the defense attorney that one of the most basic rules of cross-examination is not to ask a question when you don't know what the answer might be. If he was surprised by the officer's response, that was his problem. I told the witness and the prosecutor that there are possibly people on the jury who were offended by the term "Oriental" and that there was no way to "unring that bell." I brought the jury back in, denied the motion to strike, did not instruct the jury about it, did not instruct the witness about it ... and moved on.
PS: The jury convicted after 45 minutes of deliberation.
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Bravo, Father Steve.
And as for the post about "Ornamental" -- love it.
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Yes, a counsel of perfection eta :)
Your actions seem admirable Father Steve - and I love the image of trying to unring a bell!
To go back to your original question:
I wouldn't go so far as to say that "Oriental" is one of them. Am I wrong?
I don't think it's as certain as right or wrong, but maybe just one of those difficult areas where we all need to periodically test our alertness to changing social mores reflected in the language, to avoid our individual usage being left stranded like jetsam at some previous high-water mark. As TEd showed, it's possible we get a real surprise now and again, and may have caused unnecessary offence in the interim.
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> we all need to periodically test our alertness to changing social mores reflected in the language, to avoid our individual usage being left stranded like jetsam at some previous high-water mark. As TEd, showed, it's possible we get a real surprise now and again, and may have caused unnecessary offence in the interim. well said. I think the mutual admiration society thing is going very well, don't you? 
formerly known as etaoin...
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Of course, where I live now, there are almost no people of Asiatic origin. It's almost safe to say the only Oriental thing around here is kudzu, and that ain't too popular.
TEd
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Yes, sorry TEd, I didn't mean to connect that suggestion about causing offence with your surprise at the difference of views recorded in the usage notes. You make a valid point anyway - usage varies by region and population differences. I guess we just need to try and be aware of this.
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>>small brain and body odor
But the offensiveness of racial classifications by 'non-whiteness' derives from the historical privilege of 'whites,' and this is inherent in their coinage. Similarly, the Eurocentic perspective inherent in 'Oriental' priviliges the Occident.
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My wife, a U.S. citizen, but born and raised most of her life in PRC, has always used the term "orinental" (sic) to describe herself and other asian peoples.
I once mentioned to her that a lot of people think that 'asian' is what should be used and 'oriental' is considered rude - and by some people racist. Her immediate response was "Who say dat? Dat stupid!"
There are a LOT of asian people who consider using the term 'oriental' perfectly natural - and I've known at least one person (korean male) who DEMANDED to be called an oriental and NOT an asian.
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It may be 'important' to consider how a word feels to a recipient, but not being a mind-reader doesn't make the 'offender' a racist.
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and I love the image of trying to unring a bell
*heh* I was thinking just the other day that there must be quite a few terms and phrases which are part of the vernacular of the law which would be alien to the rest of the world, and considered that there were probably more than a few which I no longer even realized were unique to the profession.
And now, we see one, I think.
What are some other, Father Steve? The oft-used bundle of sticks, perhaps?
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The problem with trying to answer a question such as "what phrases are unique to the law?" is that one who uses them all them time in likely unaware that they are unique. It is a bit like, when I visit an Episcopal congregation for the first time to celebrate the mass there as a visiting priest and I ask the folks "What do you do here that is strange?", they look at me and assure me that they do nothing strange at all. I have to discover their liturgical oddities in the midst of the Eucharist because they are not at all strange to those who do them constantly.
P.S. I did rather enjoy one fellow who was accused of drunk driving. A civilian witness testified that the accused drove his vehicle from its proper lane of travel over a strip dividing the lanes into two directions, thereby entered the on-coming lane. The defendant then testifed, with vehemence, "I did not cross the medium." I imprudently quipped, "That's good, because they can change your future, I hear."
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Thanks, FF. I've heard the same thing from a couple of my friends. "Asain", they say, is a foolisly inaccurate grouping with no specificity... especially since there are many varied and solidified forms of culture and philosophy. At least "Oriental" focuses them to be from the "Far East". They also say that Oriental is "their" word, but I'm not sure what is meant by that.
*******
I think the next time someone describes me as white I am going to protest that I am not white, I'm sorta pink with some farmer tan overtones.
Hey, TEd. I currently say that everytime someone says so (without the 'farmers tan' part). The same with any form I fill out that asks the question of what race I'm *in. I'm not in a race and my ethnicity isn't white. "Other" is my usual choice if available, and if it isn't I'll usually not give an answer.
I believe one way to stop formulating racist ideals is to stop asking questions that force inherently racist answers... and even better to not validate some questions with an answer.
Hey, Father Steve, I wonder if this would "fly well" in (your) court: "I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it would incriminate me (force me to validate racism - or - incriminate me as a racist).
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At least "Oriental" focuses them to be from the "Far East".Been to the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute lately? http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/default.html
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No I haven't, Faldage, but I think it's stretching the concept of "east" a bit for more than half of the people on the planet when Egypt is considered so. (thanks for the link)
The Compact OED says:
— USAGE The term oriental is now regarded as old-fashioned and potentially offensive as a term denoting people from the Far East. In US English, Asian is the standard accepted term in modern use; in British English, where Asian tends to denote people from the Indian subcontinent, specific terms such as Chinese or Japanese are more likely to be used.
I anticipate it will soon start to be *considered the far west...
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> the far west...
Why should they care? "Chicago - a small derelict post-industrial town that never recovered from the collapse of the former American auto industry..." :)
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>>At least "Oriental" focuses them to be from the "Far East".<<
Again, relative and Eurocentric. Though, 'Asian' may be too, in a funny way.
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>Again, relative and Eurocentric. Though, 'Asian' may be too, in a funny way.
I don't know if it's Eurocentric, but I did that read that when the Japanese decided to create their Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, they had to filch the word Asia from English, since they didn't have an extant name for the region. Any nihon scholars able to confirm or deny this one?
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I think Vern's it is referencing the word asian there, insel.
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>>referencing Asian
Ah. Pardon: Quick to trigger.
"Asian" oddly Eurocentric in that it differentiates Europe as a region from the continent to which it belongs. Except Britain, of course. ;)
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> Except Britain, of course. ;)
Yes, I was going to query your choice of Eurocentric - but I can't think of a sensible word for this based on the USA! Americancentric... Americentric... UScentric... USA-centric... darn, the fact you guys don't have a proper country name can make life awkward! ;)
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Ah, you mean Eurasia. I agree, but think we should set aside the artifice that is Suez ans stick with Euafrasia. Or just call them all Pangaea parts 1-whatever.
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>>proper country name
"Mall"?
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> Euafrasia
Is that a new comedy show?
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>> Euafrasia
Is that a new comedy show?
You never heard of non-rhotic?
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If memory serves, Asia was originally just a small province in what we now know as the middle east, but then Africa was originally just a small province on the southern shore of the Mediterranean Sea.
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If memory serves... originally...
Must... resist...
...help...meeeeeeeeeee.........
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> You never heard of non-rhotic?
izzat a rhotorical question?
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izzat a rhotorical question?
The Lynnwood Rhotory meets for lunch every Wednesday at noon. I don't know if they permit questions of the guest speaker or not.
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Here in China, there is one school named itself NewOriental. It got on in preparing students' English for them to study abroad. Later NewOriental rolled up so much money that even ETS began to tangle with it for confliction of interests.
Here, no one has ever thought Oriental offensive, even without "New".
So, interesting and fancy to know it's indeed an offending word.
I’m learning English. If u find anywhere I can improve my composition, Pls do let me know. Bow.
Do inform me if you see any corrections needed in my written English. 
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is seen as eurocentric. "East" of what? But the same could be said with referring to The West.
I've never referred to people as an orientals. I just grew up always saying asian. I'm not sure why. It could be a mil-brat thing. It would take me some effort to not use asian.
It also occurs to me that the word oriental might have some negative connotation of mystery which some people feel may feed into a stereotype. I've argued with several of my friends on this one - with mixed results - that asians in america at least are reaping the fruit of seeds planted not just by whites, but also by asians in history. But even if the argument is correct, I'm not sure why asian would be a preferred term.
OTOH, It would be enough for me that someone ask me not to call them an oriental. I would try to avoid the term in their presence. OTOOH, I tend to forget things pretty easily.
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In The Rope Eater by Ben Jones, a story of Arctic exploration set in American Civil War times, the ship's engine tender is a Muslim man named Aziz who has three hands.
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The Other Other Hand
Would that be the othest hand?
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Hi, callithump. Thanks for your opinion; it's very important to know what a Chinese person thinks! I never really thought about it before, so thanks to all for your opinions.
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nah, Fong, it'ud be otherate jest like orientate
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>otherate
Since this plague is spreading, I'll jump in and ask if a disease that required the severance of said hand would be described as termanual?
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I come late to this discussion, and after an absence of many months.
Is it not true that the term WOG (favored by the Brits (oops) I believe) incorporates the term "oriental" in a pejorative/racist sense? (Worthy Oriental Gentleman). During my time in London I believe I recall the term used to refer to both those from India and Pakistan (although the favored slur for the latter was "Paki")
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While I have an ethical duty not to permit the use of racist terms in the courtroom, I wouldn't go so far as to say that "Oriental" is one of them. Am I wrong?
That depends on the nationality of the defense attorney.
Since the defense attorney was Korean, his reaction could have been genuine.
If the defense attorney had not been Asian, you would have been correct in dismissing his objection summarily as patently contrived.
Only an Oriental could be offended by the use of the word "Oriental" to describe an Oriental since the the word is purely descriptive, and not disrespectful, within the vocabulary of a non-Oriental who has no reason to be be knowledgeable about subtle differences, physical or otherwise, between Orientals from different countries within the Orient.
An Oriental might perceive an insult where none exists only because he believes that everyone should be able to distinguish between Orientals from different countries just as he does. However, this is an unrealistic expectation.
A person who does not live in the tropics can be forgiven for describing all tropical plants as "tropical" because he or she doesn't know the specific name of the plant in question. This is not an insult to the plant or to those who know the individual names of all tropical plants.
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The problem with this thesis is that most asians cannot reliably discern the home of origin of other asians without hearing them speak their native tongue or noticing their dress. (In the same way, a caucasian can't reliably discern that another person is French or German without a clue.)
If one asian sees another all he knows is he sees another asian - and, in fact, even they sometimes make the bigger mistake of not being able to distinguish some south americans from asians.
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Carpal Tunnel
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OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
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discern that another person is French or German without a clue
Easy. Germans without a clue look dumber than other Germans.
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