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Pooh-Bah
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In an interesting, recent New Yorker article, Lawrence Wright writes: Those clues, plus certain particularly Moroccan political concerns expressed in the document, such as the independence movement in Western Sahara, suggested that at least some of the authors were diaspora Moroccans, probably living in Spain. I wonder what everyone else here thinks of this use of "diaspora," which I understand to be a noun, either the scattering of a people ( the diaspora of the Jews) or the collective group of people themselves who were scattered ( his grandfather was a member of the Jewish diaspora). Wright's use of the word as an adjective seems awkward to me at best. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040802fa_fact
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Alex:
i sat and thought about this one for a bit (after reading the fascinating article!) and concluded that the usage was probably OK. I can construe the phrase to mean Moroccans of the diaspora, though you can also just as legitimately conclude that diaspora was used as an adjective, which wouldn't be quite right.
I also thought about other ways to get the point across and couldn't come up with anything that was so much better that I as an editor would use my ble pencil on it.
Nice to see you again!
TEd
TEd
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Thanks. Yeah, I agree it isn't horrible, but I wondered if you couldn't use an adjective suffix to create "diasporic," which doesn't go down too well either. I guess it is akin to other uses of nouns as adjectives, such "car guy" or "Bud man."
It is a fascinating, and somewhat frightening, article.
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Wright's use of the word as an adjective seems awkward to me at best.
Doesn't seem like an adjective to me, just two nouns (in compound) the first modifying the second, like arthritis sufferer, Las Vegas gambler, or soup nazi. It's a pretty common phenomenon. I'd find diasporic or diasporal Moraccans to be less satisfactory than diaspora Moroccans.
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However, jheem, it functions as an adjective here.
Alex, yeah, I had to think about it for a minute, too, but I agree with y'all: it does work better than any stylistic adjectification of the word.
Now I'm off to read the article.
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However, jheem, it functions as an adjective here.
Sorry, AnnaStrophic, but I have to disagree with you here. It's a noun modifying another noun. Consider the following.
1a. the red book
1b. the very red book
1c. the book is red
1d. the book which/that is red
2a, the diaspora Moroccans
2b. *the very diaspora Moroccans
2c. *the Moroccans are disapora
2d. *the Moroccans who are diaspora
Diaspora here does not act as an adjective nor is it an adjective, but it is a noun.
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The function of adjectives is to modify nouns. Nouns that modify nouns, in this particular context, are adjectives. Wanna take this outside? 
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The function of adjectives is to modify nouns. Nouns that modify nouns, in this particular context, are adjectives.So a noun is a noun, unless its function changes and then the noun is an adjective. I think I've got that. But the noun in question, diaspora, does not function like other adjectives. So maybe some adjectives are more adjectivy than others. Wanna take this outside? Sure, I'll meet you outside. If I'm not there in a couple of minutes, you can start without me. 
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Touché, mon buddy.
I forget, how do I shadowbox?
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shadowbox
Another great compound. Is shadow a noun or an adjective? Now where did I put my epee?
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The most overused word in NY Times crossword puzzles.
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>The most overused word in NY Times crossword puzzles.
next to eee (big shoes), which ain't really a word.
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Or either an adverb, one.
OTOH the line between adjectives and nouns is sometimes perty dang fuzzy
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The Wikipedia actually credits "diasporic" with wordness.
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Any noun (well, I haven't checked them all) can qualify another noun: shop window, toilet seat, window seat, street corner, street Arab, cricket bat, ostrich egg, book club, seed drill, chicken surprise, hair oil, etc etc etc.
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have you ever seen a toilet bowl?
formerly known as etaoin...
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seen a toilet bowl
No, but I've heard that Bill Veeck had a cricket bat for the old St. Louis Browns back in '51.
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I'm sure TEd could SHEd some jeers of toy for us...
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citation intentionally left blank
Cubby's florets?
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Tsuwm writes: "eee (big shoes), which ain't really a word"
Bless you, old soul, for acknowledging that there are some constructions which are pronouncible and recognizable and which convey meaning but which are, nonetheless, not words. I will sleep better tonight for it.
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No, but I've heard that
very good, grasshopper.
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Cubby's florets
flowers taking *chances?
formerly known as etaoin...
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flowers taking *chances?
Er, nope. Albert Romolo Broccoli versus Virag Lipoti.
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I will sleep better tonight for it
Did you have you a good night's sleep? 'Cause this raises my old question that I ask every time some prescrip declares that, e.g., incent isn't a word. We're stretching a little farther on this one, but, what does it take for a set of phonemes to be a word? What is it beyond pronounceability, recognizability, and conveyance of meaning that is required to endow a group of phonemes with the blessings of word status? I've never had anyone even attempt an answer. I'm assuming here, for purposes of discussion, that 'conveyance of meaning' implies that at least some significant subset of the speakers of a given language will, in some specific context, understand the meaning of the word-candidate in that language.
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"...what does it take for a set of phonemes to be a word? What is it beyond pronounceability, recognizability, and conveyance of meaning that is required to endow a group of phonemes with the blessings of word status? I've never had anyone even attempt an answer. I'm assuming here, for purposes of discussion, that 'conveyance of meaning' implies that at least some significant subset of the speakers of a given language will, in some specific context, understand the meaning of the word-candidate in that language." asks faldage
At the risk of being called a (hush) Prescriptionist I'll delimit the meaning of all words. As such...
A word is a symbolic representation of information about the encircling environment but only when it is understood by an entity which thinks.
Well faldage, what do you think?
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OK--a word is a symbolic representation of information about the encircling environment but only when it is understood by an entity which thinks.
today (once again!) the NYT crossword has a clue (#45)Shoebox letters.
in that context(or should i call it an encircling environment)--i.e., letter found on shoeboxes-- EEE is a symbolic representation of information and while it might not be understood by everybody, it is easily understood by an entity which thinks.
i have bought shoes in england and italy.. and other places.. not everyone uses EEE (my size my the way, she admits, while crossing her toes over toes, in an effort to make her feet look smaller)--but i quickly come to understand when other codes are used, and to quickly be able to figure out my size.. (N- as in Narrow, vs, M or W or WW is one very common alternate to the A-B-...EEE gauge.)
so i am guessing you agree with faldage.. and eee is a word.
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eeek! Yes , of Troy, I grudgingly agree with Faldage. Which is somewhat a wonder because I have often noted than many times it seems that Faldage doesn't agree with Faldage. And sometimes rightly so.  And speaking of " ergodic" of Troy, I thought that your explanation of the term's meaning was by far the most logical. As a matter of fact I will from this day forth use " ergodic" to denote any system that will revert to a predictable state given the addition of larger samples through adequate time. Thank you.
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I looked word up in the AHD and it defines word in terms of morpheme which doesn't help too much, because it defines morpheme in terms of word. I would think your definition a little too broad, amemeba, as it would include such things as the symbols on traffic signs. This is not a word: http://members.aol.com/rmoeuradot/200x200/reg/R3-2.gif
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re:Which is somewhat a wonder because I have often noted than many times it seems that Faldage doesn't agree with Faldage.
YUP, i'll second that-consistanty is the hobgobblin of small minds.. faldage is many things, but never small minded!
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Faldage doesn't agree with Faldage.
Besides, I'm a Fool; therefore, I don't necessarily espouse everything I espouse.
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Ah but yes, Mister Faldage, a red light is indeed a word and a pretty emphatic one at that. A red light is a symbol just like these words I write are symbols and they don't exist in a vacuum, they only exist as "words" in the context of our culture. For example take Egyptian hieroglyphics, they are not words until the moment of decipher. Until that moment they are mere pictures and markings. This is because the referent constitutes and gives essence to "wordness" and not the medium itself. So whether spoken or written, or inferred from a menacing growl, a transfer of meaning from the symbol to the recipient determines that which is a bona fide word. Now a further example... It is said that "amemeba is flexanimous". Now tear off the word flexanimous from this sentence and put it in your pocket if you are not sure what it means. As the paper with flexanimous written upon it rides about in your pocket you will never know if it is a real word or not until you google it or ask tsuwm. See?
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Knowing something is a word and having it be a word are two different things and a representation* of a word is not the same thing as a word and a red light is no more a word than is a slap upside the head.
*But, since it can be used to represent a word it can be taken as something standing in for that word for purposes of discussion. We must, however, never forget that the representation is not the word. The No Left Turn sign I linked to above is a representation of a phrase and one step further removed from that phrase than are the letters that make up the representation at the beginning of this sentence. The hieroglyphs are just such a representation of a word when they are in ideograph mode. We may not know what word one represents but that does not deny the existence of the word.
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I thought about this New Yorker article this morning when I turned on the radio and heard about the alerts in NY/NJ.
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re "diaspora Morrocans": Wright's use of the word as an adjective seems awkward to me at best.
Whether noun or adjective, or a hybrid of the two, or a useful coinage, "diaspora Morrocans" is an elegant term, simple and concise and self-explanatory.
Rules of grammar are made to be broken by accomplished writers with the talent and boldness to transcend traditional limits, not so much by breaking the rules as by breaking new ground ... just as a figure skater breaks new ground landing the first "quadruple".
Personally, I think discussions about grammatical rules at this literary elevation are about as useful as comparisons of a turboprop with an F16.
That's just my opinion, of course. It's not that I have anything against the rules of grammar per se. It's just that they are irrelevant once a writer of Wright's trim has escaped "the surly bonds of earth".
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huh. here's what bothered me about this usage, which I didn't previously comment on since it seemed outside the scope of the original plaint: Diaspora, as originally coined, referred to the dispersion of the Jews. I don't think that was meant at all in the phrase "diaspora Morrocans" -- although it *could have referred to Jewish Morrocans, from the context one gathers that it rather refers to Morrocans dispersed in Spain (who were prolly not Jewish). I wouldn't have combined the two words for a few more generations. :-}
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Diaspora, as originally coined, referred to the dispersion of the Jews.
Well, I suppose we could coin the term "diasplura" to describe any ethnic, racial or religious group which is dispersed beyond their homeland as the result of political or other upheaval.
But a coinage which does not improve on "diaspora Morrocans" is simply a conceit.
Words evolve with normal usage and take on extended meanings which everyone understands, particularly when they are modified with adjectives, or nouns, or noun-adjectives which modify the original meaning.
A coined word is fair game for a new coinage, in my respectful opinion, tsuwm.
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and my point (which I didn't want to overly emphasize for fear of politicizing things) was that the construction may have been... strained in an article such as this.
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my point ... was that the construction may have been ... strained in an article such as this.
As I am not so self-assured as Lawrence Wright, I have consulted the American Heritage Dictionary which includes these definitions of "diaspora":
diaspora
A dispersion of a people from their original homeland. The community formed by such a people:
“the glutinous dish known throughout the [West African] diaspora as... fufu” (Jonell Nash).
diaspora. A dispersion of an originally homogeneous entity, such as a language or culture: “the diaspora of English into several mutually incomprehensible languages” (Randolph Quirk).
Some will take it as instructive, myself included, that the editors of the American Heritage Dictionary cited as a leading example of this usage, a usage which precisely mirrors Lawrence Wright's usage, to wit: "West African diaspora" - "Morrocan diaspora".
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Diaspora, as originally coined, referred to the dispersion of the Jews.Yes, but it's a short hop, skip, and a jump from the original Jewish Diaspora to A-H's "dispersion of an originally homogeneous entity, such as a language or culture". http://www.bartleby.com/61/1/D0200100.htmlThe word, diaspora after all conceivably existed in Greek before the Jews were dispersed outside of Israel in the sixth century BCE. Vulgate: et dispergam eos ventilabro in portis terrae LXX: kai diaspero autous en diaspora en pulais laou mou eteknothesan. KJ: And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land. Jer. xv:7.
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And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land.Are you sure this is "Jer. xv.7", jheem? It sounds like Nostradamus catching a fleeting glimpse of the throngs waving banners at the Fleet Center in Boston [at the gates of America]. Or would that be the Republican Convention in New York which he foresees?
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One day, someday, Dear Faldage, that special day when you are speaking to yourself, ask yourself... What three elements are logically and semantically necessary to delimitate the term "word"? List them. (1) a referent (2) a symbol for the referred. (3) a mind that recognizes the association. Now ask that grumpy Scotch-Irish-German person that lives inside of you this simple question... If we remove a single one of these three elements from the mix do we still have a "word"? Now see how pleasant life is when we all come to an understanding.
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Well now damnit boys we are speaking English here and the bounds of the English language knows no license. Here music has liberty over meaning and meaning means even better if it can be incorperated into a cute turn of phrase.
Damn we are lucky.
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Are you sure this is "Jer. xv.7", jheem?
You're kidding, right? Sometimes it takes me a moment or two. But the citation of chapter and verse is correct. Anyway, the Hebrew has "I will winnow them with a winnowing fork" and I see that one of the meanings of fan is a machine for winnowing, so I guess King James' committee of translators got it right.
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Personally, I think discussions about grammatical rules at this literary elevation are about as useful as comparisons of a turboprop with an F16.
Sorry to have bothered you, but I thought the original posting asked a question about whether the noun diaspora could modify the noun Moroccans. I could be wrong, I probably am, or I could be digressing, but heck, that's pretty much SOP aboard the good ship HMS AWADtalk. Folks purdy much talk about what they feel like talking about.
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Rules of grammar are made to be broken by accomplished writers with the talent and boldness to transcend traditional limits, not so much by breaking the rules as by breaking new ground ... just as a figure skater breaks new ground landing the first "quadruple".
Well I agree with you, being a "descriptivist" rather than a "prescriptivist" when it comes to grammar in general.
Some will take it as instructive, myself included, that the editors of the American Heritage Dictionary cited as a leading example of this usage, a usage which precisely mirrors Lawrence Wright's usage, to wit: "West African diaspora" - "Morrocan diaspora".
I disagree. That example, "West African diaspora" uses an adjective (West African) to describe the noun (diaspora). In fact it would have been better if Wright had said "Morrocan dispora." What he wrote was "diaspora Moroccans." My gripe is due in part to the fact that Wright could have used a simpler and more direct term: immigrants.
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that grumpy Scotch-Irish-German personDear amemeba: Speaking as one with Scottish ancestors, I protest your imputation of Faldage's temperment to his Scotch-Irish-German forebears. You could throw in a whole stew of far-flung nationalities and there would still be no accounting for it.
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Sorry to have bothered you
You didn't "bother" me, jheem.
I simply expressed the personal opinion that such discussions are not "useful" when we are scrutinizing the articulations of an accomplished writer whose articulations are more worthy of emulation than quibbles.
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My gripe is due in part to the fact that Wright could have used a simpler and more direct term: immigrants.Since you are a "descriptivist", and not a "prescriptivist", our differences are not ideological, and that is certainly a relief, AW. Still, I can't agree that "immigrant Morroccan" means the same thing as "diaspora Morroccan". An "immigrant" is one who emigrates, usually alone or with their family, to make a new life in a new country offering new opportunities for individual advancement. A "diasphora" is an entire community of people who feel stigmatized as a community in their homeland. They emigrate to escape persecution. A good example, I suggest, is the Quakers who landed on Plymouth Rock. BTW I do not think there is any qualitative difference between "diaspora Morroccans" and "Morroccan diaspora".
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I simply expressed the personal opinion that such discussions are not "useful" when we are scrutinizing the articulations of an accomplished writer whose articulations are more worthy of emulation than quibbles.
OK, just wanted to make sure the linguistics horseflies weren't goading you. Now that I know I can adjust my behavior accordingly. For the record I never said anything about the writer of the phrase "diaspora Moroccans". But perhaps that's a quibble.
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OK, just wanted to make sure the linguistics horseflies weren't goading you.
I don't consider you a "linguistic horsefly", jheem ... particularly since you and I are in full agreement [and have been from the outset]:
"just two nouns (in compound) the first modifying the second, like arthritis sufferer ... It's a pretty common phenomenon. I'd find diasporic or diasporal Moraccans to be less satisfactory than diaspora Moroccans."
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come to an understanding
I thank you, amilœba, for at least attempting to supply a definition. It's more than I've gotten from anyone else.
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_____________________________________________________ I thank you, amilœba, <- spelling error) for at least attempting to supply a definition. It's more than I've gotten from anyone else.____________________________________________________ And thank you too Faldage, your kindness is exceeded only by your charming ability to equivocate. Now will you please stop indulging my bruised ego and answer the question at hand... (1)A referent
(2) a symbol for the referent
(3) an entity that can perceive the association. Are these the delimitating components of a "word"? Can you name any other qualities that might further delimitate this definition and still have universal application for all words; even those spoken on Mars and the Moon?
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Still, I can't agree that "immigrant Morroccan" means the same thing as "diaspora Morroccan". Just to clarify -- I don't think they mean the same thing, I just think that "Morroccan immigrants" would have been more appropriate.
An "immigrant" is one who emigrates, usually alone or with their family, to make a new life in a new country offering new opportunities for individual advancement ...which, I gather from reading the argument, applies to the vast majority of Muslims who have moved to Spain and other European countries.
A "diasphora" is an entire community of people who feel stigmatized as a community in their homeland. They emigrate to escape persecution. ...yes but I don't see how this applies to Morroccan immigrants or even the occasional individual Morroccan refugee seeking asylum for some particular reason. But then again I am ignorant of the sociopolitical details of Morroccan life.
BTW I do not think there is any qualitative difference between "diaspora Morroccans" and "Morroccan diaspora". I think the former refers to a more finite number of individuals who belong to a larger group, which is described as a whole by the latter term. But we are picking at nits! I propose that we all meet at The Algonquin for drinks tonight at 7:00.
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I apologize, ayouyouba. Your definition is attually® quite good. I only object to your inclusion of such things as traffic lights as words. Of course, that's a pretty fuzzy area, since a good definition would somehow have to differentiate between a red traffic light and the ASL sign for "stop!"
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>good definition would somehow have to differentiate between a red traffic light and the ASL sign for "stop!"
Or, indeed between a red traffic light and the sign for "stop!" in any SL.
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>..differentiate between a red traffic light and the [A]SL sign for "stop!"
I'd suggest adding something along these lines:
4) an entity that can communicate the association
(tricky, that.)
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_______________________________________________________ I'd suggest adding something along these lines: 4) an entity that can communicate the association. ___________________________________________________ I don't know, tsuwm, but I can see how the addition of a communicator could sharpen the distinction between an accidental environmental association such as a photographic, and therefore symbolic, representation of a nubile and nude female form when seen by a hot-blooded adolescent male, as compared with the more word-like allusions to the circumstances of human coupling that can be read in Harlequin paperback books of romance. But what happens then to the information laden dance of honeybees? Some biologists consider their dance much more than just math or mere words, some consider their elaborate wiggling display which gives detailed account about the world around them, a virtual language. Who here is the origional communicator? Another pertinent point... Can a real object "symbolize" another real object such as the natural association of Mount Fuji with the nation of Japan? If so then is "Mount Fuji" a word? ( I refer, of course, to the physical reality of the mountain and not the mountain's name) And is Pavlof's bell a word or just an expectant ring? (I just threw that in.)
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If Mt Fuji is a word, then I demand to know its antonym.
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What is a word?
1) It's that thing, what you look it up in the dictionary, and you say it to people and they might get mad or they might look it up in the dictionary or maybe if you spelled it wrong you could lose points on the essay question or if you say it to your mama she might wash your mouth out with soap. Or else laugh and tell your daddy.
2) It's what the W stands for in AWAD.
Respectfully submitted,
A person whose screen name is a noun modifying another noun, if you choose to write it that way
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I don't see how this applies to Morroccan immigrants or even the occasional individual Morroccan refugee seeking asylum for some particular reason.
You have made your case very persuasively, AW, and it is a thing to be admired on that count alone, whether or not the writer Wright has stretched the meaning of "diasphora" to the point of misuse (as you suggest).
I haven't read Wright's article so I took his usage at face value. I assumed that he was talking about a community of persecuted Morroccans who have left the country on that account as a matter of choice, rather than involuntarily in the case of refugees.
Which raises another question. Where do you draw the line between "refugees" and "diasphora"?
Many, if not most, of the Jews who escaped Hitler's Germany and the Nazi occupation in Europe were quite literally running for their lives, not unlike refugees.
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If Mt Fuji is a word, then I demand to know its antonym.
This might sound like a blinding thrust into the obvious, but a word is anything which is intelligible to the reader or the hearer as a communication with a meaning which is understood, or which is understandable by studying the language or culture of the communicator.
Therefore, "Mt Fuji" is a word, or perhaps two words, and it matters not if it has an antonym or an unclnym. It is a word in any event, or, more precisely, it is two words together producing a name, and that name is a word.
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Which raises another question. Where do you draw the line between "refugees" and "diasphora"? Many, if not most, of the Jews who escaped Hitler's Germany and the Nazi occupation in Europe were quite literally running for their lives, not unlike refugees.
Yeah that's a good question. A diaspora seems to me to describe the movement of a people on a massive scale (the African diaspora), or it can apply to individuals who are part of that movement (including those descended from the translocated individuals). There are ways that diaspora and refugee intersect and ways that they don't. An African slave forcibly shipped overseas is clearly not a refugee, although later they might seek asylum in a free state and become a refugee from slavery.
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re:Many, if not most, of the Jews who escaped Hitler's Germany and the Nazi occupation in Europe were quite literally running for their lives, not unlike refugees.
yeah, but the 'diasphora' of the jews didn't take place in the middle of the last century.. jews leaving eastern europe were refugees.--it might be called a 'modern diasphora' but most don't see it that way.
the diasphora took place long ago, when jews were driven out of traditional homeland on eastern mederterranian. (and end up in places like spain, eastern europe, parts of north africa and else where)
Jerusalum was a capital city of 'jews'(some 3000 to 4000 years ago! --but go back 200 years in times, and area today know as 'isreal' -Jews were in the minority.
there were some jews, many christians, and more muslams. the area was part of turkish (Ottoman) empire.
its a hard case--i know, i have irish citezenship, because irish goverment felt, many irish left ireland not by choice but by economic nessecity.. and they felt they, and their children and their childrens children should not be 'punished'. many jews were forced out of what is now isreal (under threat of death)--many generations ago.
how many generations of force emmigation are needed before the 'forcers' of emigration can say, 'all of the X are gone, and gone for X generations, and now this land is mine, for me and my people(forever!)'?
(a question that could also be asked about northern ireland!)
that's a good deal of what is at the heart of the conflict in mid east. Is the land of Isreal a jewish homeland? or did they 'forfiet it' when they were forced to leave? (and does the group or groups that forced them to leave get to call the land theirs forever? or do they too have to forfiet it if someone forces them out?
same question come up in americas (especially north america)all the time. who owns the land? do the displaced 'first people' have rights to it? and to how much? and can they dislodge current residents (occupiers!) or not?
Many of the first people on north america are gone (intentional and unintentional genocide)--but does that that mean their children, and their children's children still have to forfiet rights to their homelands?
the questions raised by middle east conflict are by no means unusual, or limited to that place! and there are no easy answers--in North america, or in mid east.
(one might say, no matter what happened in past, isreal won right to land in 1948, and has continued over the years to maintain the 'right of ownership'. previous 'owners' aquired the land buy sword, and later generations lost by sword.. and that's the way it goes--basicly, that is what US government/people have done in north america.)
who are the 'rightful people' of UK? picts? are there any left? celts? Angles? Saxons? Danes? 'french Normen'?--(in the future will it be the Pakastanis'? the Jamacains? )
I haven't read article.. and i don't know what is behind Morrccan's leaving (are they being forced, by gun, or economic nessicity, or on religious grounds? or are they chosing to emigrate.? (and what is choice? how bad do things have to be economically to be called force? stavation? or just lower middle class existance?)
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A lot of you have spent a goodly amount of time providing your opinion on this, but seem not to have read the ariticle linked in the original post. (context is meaningful.)
I may be the only one who was bothered by the use of diaspora in the context of this article, but I'd be more willing to accept that if I thought anyone else had read it.
-ron o.
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I may be the only one who was bothered by the use of diaspora in the context of this article, but I'd be more willing to accept that if I thought anyone else had read it.
I read it. So what's your gripe? A quick google around the web shows that many journalists are writing about a kind of Muslim diaspora (Turks, Moroccans, etc.) in Europe, and how various terrorist organizations recruit from young men among them.
The Spanish authorities traced a document found in the van near the Madrid train station to Moroccans living within Spain, longterm: a kind of diaspora.
Is your objection because the diaspora being written about was not Jews, but Muslims? It seems that the meaning of diaspora has extended itself into other ethnicities and religions.
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Is your objection because the diaspora being written about was not Jews, but Muslims?
yep.. and with a terrorist connection at that -- it was the first time I'd seen it used in that sort of context, and I just found it jarring; if it has become commonplace, so be it.
(I guess I'm somewhat surprised, in an age when you can hardly utter once-innocent words such as niggardly, to find somewhat of a counter-example. otoh, there's a completely different mechanism at work.)
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I read it. So what's your gripe? A quick google around the web shows that many journalists are writing about a kind of Muslim diaspora (Turks, Moroccans, etc.) in Europe, and how various terrorist organizations recruit from young men among them.
Well perhaps those journalists have been misusing the word. It seems to me that Middle Easterners, regardless of religion, are moving to Europe by choice to enjoy economic and social advantages of Western culture, just as people in earlier centuries immigrated to the U.S. for economic opportunities. Honestly, I think it's just a P.C.-ism. "Immigrant" is out, and "diaspora" is in because it vaguely smacks of victimhood. Middle Easterners may be leaving behind economic hardship, but things were hardly much worse during the Irish potato famine.
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Honestly, I think it's just a P.C.-ism. "Immigrant" is out, and "diaspora" is in because it vaguely smacks of victimhood. Middle Easterners may be leaving behind economic hardship, but things were hardly much worse during the Irish potato famine.
Which is why folks have written about the Irish diaspora. I didn't say I agreed with it, I said I could understand it in the context. I think it smacks of PC to try to regulate how people use words in general. The original Diaspora to the Persian empire was less a matter of forced removal of Jews from Jerusalem and its environs than the later Roman-induced diaspora as a consequence of the their losing a war of rebellion. That diaspora more to do with Cyrus allowing subjects from different parts of his empire to immigrate to Babylon.
I myself would probably not use the term anyway. As it evokes all kinds of problematic rhetoric.
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Which is why folks have written about the Irish diaspora. I'll drink to that. I think it smacks of PC to try to regulate how people use words in general. Well I hope I'm not "regulating" the use of words -- just offering up my two cents as a lowly reader. As an aside, here's an interesting article on Jews returning to Russia after having previously immigrated to Israel: http://makeashorterlink.com/?H2ED268F8
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here's an interesting article on Jews returning to Russia
Thanks, nice article.
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... things were hardly much worse during the Irish potato famine.There is actually such a thing as "Irish Diaspora Studies." http://www.bradford.ac.uk/acad/diaspora/
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________________________________________________________
This might sound like a blinding thrust into the obvious, but a word is anything which is intelligible to the reader or the hearer as a communication with a meaning which is understood, or which is understandable by studying the language or culture of the communicator.
Therefore, "Mt Fuji" is a word, or perhaps two words, and it matters not if it has an antonym or an unclnym. It is a word in any event, or, more precisely, it is two words together producing a name, and that name is a word.
______________________________________________________
So right you really are, wordminstrel, but, arr-uh, your obviousness doesn't translate into the sublime finesse of the hitherto electronic conversation. Namely...
Here we are investigating the extent of word meanings in-as-much as they can confine ( and thereby delimitate definitions in a socratic manner.) Obviousnessly, you can restrict a definition to fit a form that is functional. Semantically.
But...can we invent a form which provides insight into the nature of human communication by the delimiting nature of semantical modeling?
I think we can.
(by-the-way, what is an unclymn?)
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Can a real object "symbolize" another real object such as the natural association of Mount Fuji with the nation of Japan?
If so then is "Mount Fuji" a word?
(I refer, of course, to the physical reality of the mountain and not the mountain's name.)
Therefore, "Mt Fuji" is a word, or perhaps two words
not wanting to signify pedanticism (heaven forfend), but haven't we begged the question?! or something?
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I think not, Mister tsuwm, the question "What is a word" is fundamental to a Judaic Christian understanding of the purpose and make up of the Universe.
In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God.
From this it is easy to infer that the Word, or at least a mathematical formula for the existence of a Universe, preceded the Universe.
Inherent in the understanding of any such formula, obviously, is the reason for the existence of all of the contributors to this Awad board; including a tsuwm, a Father Steve, or a lowly ameba, or even a Wordminstriel or a Faldage.
Pedanticism, indeed...Repent!
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Repent!
upon careful consideration, I've decided rather to choose nepenthe; thank you very much.
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One might attempt to wash away that bitterness with a dram or two of old style Absinthe.
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And here I was, content in my misguided, benighted fantasy that the majority of earthlings who were not reared under Judeo-Christian precepts had them some words, too, even if sometimes they look funny.
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Matters of orthodoxy aside, it is interesting that the Book of Genesis describes "The Word" as the thing that precedes all else. Not knowing much about Bible studies, I wonder if this is an accurate translation of the original (Hebrew I assume), or did the original text have a different shade of meaning? I'd love to hear what Father Steve has to say on this.
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No, no. Not Genesis. The first few lines of the first chapter of the Gospel According to Saint John. Not written in Hebrew. Most likely composed in Greek.
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(Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it.)
Well I stand corrected! But it does make more sense when you examine the word "Logos" (from www.m-w.com):
1 : the divine wisdom manifest in the creation, government, and redemption of the world and often identified with the second person of the Trinity
2 : reason that in ancient Greek philosophy is the controlling principle in the universe
Perhaps the early Greek Christian authors naturally were adding Hellenistic philosophy to the monotheistic religion they had acquired.
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the second person of the Trinity
second "person"? Oh... maybe M-W is talking about grammar here.
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talking grammar??
the father, the son, and the holy spirit
--2nd person---^
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--2nd person---^
And the father, whose name is sometimes translated as "I am that I am."
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Can a real object "symbolize" another real object such as the natural association of Mount Fuji with the nation of Japan? If so then is "Mount Fuji" a word?
All these musings on whether a "word" which ordinary readers recognize as a "word" is actually a "word" are way over my head, but perhaps we have can agree that "Mt Fuji" is a word if it stands for "Japan" even if we can't agree that it is a word if it stands for Mt Fuji alone.
When "Mt Fuji" stands for "Japan", it is a synecdoche [defined as follows].
3 entries found for synecdoche.
syn·ec·do·che ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-nkd-k)
n.
A figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole (as hand for sailor), the whole for a part (as the law for police officer), the specific for the general (as cutthroat for assassin), the general for the specific (as thief for pickpocket), or the material for the thing made from it (as steel for sword).
If "Mt Fuji" standing alone [i.e. for itself] isn't a "word", what is it?
And why does this distinction matter if an ordinary reader understands precisely what we mean by this pairing of ... uh, palabras?
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... in ancient Greek philosophy is the controlling principle in the universe
Perhaps the early Greek Christian authors naturally were adding Hellenistic philosophy to the monotheistic religion they had acquired. - Alex Williams
I think you are right.
And why does this distinction matter if an ordinary reader understands precisely what we mean by this pairing of ... uh, palabras? - Wordminstrel
I'd say the distinction doesn't matter, Wordminstrel, for those who want to go through life as cattle; dimly munching their days away, never a contemplative thought about the nature of their existence.
By what you write here it is apparent that you have a clear, precise, well-ordered mind. Think of the thoughts that you could think if you could think in words that weren't so fuzzy.
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If "Mt Fuji" standing alone [i.e. for itself] isn't a "word", what is it?
I suppose this question might be relevant if we were talking about the word(s) mount and Fuji (or, for that matter, Fujiyama) and not the ding-an-sich.
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Exactly, Faldage. Your acute perception is worthy of a big ding of your own dong.
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acute perception
Sometimes it's the job of a Fool to state the obvious.
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dimly munching their days away, never a contemplative thought about the nature of their existence
Pray tell, Amemeba, what contemplative reveries could be more bovine than musing on something which is utterly empty-headed?
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Sometimes it's the job of a Fool to state the obvious.
As you have just demonstrated, Faldage, with such charming innocence and ironic self-content, stating the obvious is not always the same thing as recognizing the obvious.
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Pray tell, Amemeba, what contemplative reveries could be more bovine than musing on something which is utterly empty-headed?Ah Ha! The Wordminstrel speaks of cows of a different kine! Cows and adolescents and beat poets don't speak in "words" they simply "Moo". Mooing, you see, serves them well in-as-much-as they have no need for sapient conversation. Their only need is to belong to the herd, or the coming generation, or the cognoscenti. A meaningless moo, properly mooed, will garner them membership in the desired in-group and the hip-group will answer back "Right-on", or "Cool" or "I herd that". But in great contrast, Wordminstrel, a few some of us aspire towards a much higher goal, namely, towards a more accurate understanding of the fundamental nature of words and their meanings. Through this understanding we hope to bring peace to all mankine. (or something like that.) Wanna join our happy group? Wanna stop being a word nerd who uses words like a knee-jerk robot that knows not well what the words mean? If you prove to have ears, Wordminstrel, I will be happy to share some of our dark word secrets.
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a few some of us aspire towards a much higher goal, namely, towards a more accurate understanding of the fundamental nature of words and their meanings.
Whatever "few" you have in mind, Amemeba, it would be better for everyone, not to mention your cause, if there were even fewer of them.
I fear the tinkers have mistook their tinking for thinking. As you yourself observed so insightfully, so recently [albeit more harshly than I myself would have put it]: "How does an ignorant person recognize a wise one?"
How can a cow which can only "moo" recognize the music in a voice, the poetry in a pasture?
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Hot diggedy dog, Wordminstrel, you lose! You resorted to name calling without also addressing the proposition at hand. It is good to win but somehow I feel cheapened. Like a small town tinkerer who has failed to help out a fellow man.  Edit Added: Darnit Wordminstrel, I think you added that last part about the poetry of a pasture after I replied. I think.
Non-the-less your non sequitur serves as a allusion to the point so I apologize. Damnit.
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I think you added that last part about the poetry of a pasture after I replied. I think.Let us just say we are on the same wave-length after all, Amemeba.
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Inasmuch as. Nonetheless. No hyphens.
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Ahbutyes, Nancyk, you digress. Who is the fool? Faldage? Wordminstrel? Other? _______________________________________________
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