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#128437 - 05/10/04 08:36 AM intelligence vs intellect
reebecca Offline
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Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 4
What is the difference between the two?


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#128438 - 05/10/04 08:54 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
wsieber Offline
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Loc: Switzerland
At the risk of getting lost at sea in metaphor, I suggest: intellect is the motor, and intelligence is the power delivered by this motor (for better or worse).


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#128439 - 05/10/04 09:42 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
reebecca Offline
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Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 4
Thank You for your reply. It seems to make sense. Where my struggle began from was the usage of the adjectives, i.e. what would be the distinction between say an intelligent person and an intellectual person. How, if at all, does the motor methaphor transfer to that situation?
An intellectual person has the ability(motor) and intelligent person actually uses it(delivering the power)?
(please excuse the overuse of parentheses and question marks)


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#128440 - 05/10/04 10:18 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
jheem Offline
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To me, intellectual has a slightly more pejorative connotation to it than intelligent. Interestingly, the etymologies show that both words come from the same verb in Latin: intellect is from the past particple and intelligence is from the present particple. You might want to look at the synonym section of this entry:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/I0178400.html


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#128441 - 05/10/04 10:43 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Welcome, Reebecca.

"Intellect" suggests to me a type of intelligence. You can be intelligent without being intellectual, but not vice-versa.


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#128442 - 05/10/04 12:23 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Capfka Offline
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Oh, I dunno, ASp. I've met a lot of intellectuals who didn't seem to be all that intelligent ... an intellectual will think and think about a problem but may well still come to a nonsensical although potentially strictly logical answer.

Welcome, Reebecca. Good question.


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#128443 - 05/10/04 04:11 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
musick Offline
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...nonsensical althought potentially strictly logical answer.

Just as a *sensical answer may be potentially strictly illogical!

*******

I like wsieber's perspective. Neither function on thier own plane without the operation of the other. What one does with either is not (really) part of the difference between them.


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#128444 - 05/10/04 08:06 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Faldage Offline
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both words come from the same verb in Latin

Speaking of double-dipping.


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#128445 - 05/11/04 01:07 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
wsieber Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
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Loc: Switzerland
intellectual has a slightly more pejorative connotation to it than intelligent - Yeahbut, this is a secondary evolution of the word "intellectual", quite separate from "intellect". I even suspect that "intellectual", as a noun, entered English independently from French, whereupon it was devalued by the pragmatists.


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#128446 - 05/11/04 02:51 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
reebecca Offline
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Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 4
Thanks for all your replies.
I did try to work from the roots of the word: intelligence coming from the present participle of inter- and legere perhaps denoting the present action of collecting/perceiving 'knowledge', while intellect, from the past participle of the same Latin term, perhaps referring more to the processing of that knowledge that follows its collection/perception... all in all it lead me into a big mental knot and, ultimately, to this board.
I would however have to disagree with jheem-based on gut feeling, I definitely would not name intellectual as the pejorative of the two.



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#128447 - 05/11/04 07:16 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
jheem Offline
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I would however have to disagree with jheem-based on gut feeling, I definitely would not name intellectual as the pejorative of the two.

Well, I did say: "To me, intellectual has a slightly more pejorative connotation to it than intelligent." Then, you'd say that intelligent and intellectual both have the same connotations? (Because, for me, intelligent cannot be the pejorative of the two.) I guess what I was trying to say is that while one can learn to become an intellectual, one is either intelligent or not. And like with many things that can be learned, one can be a bad intellectual or a good one, but one is either intelligent or not.


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#128448 - 05/11/04 07:25 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
jheem Offline
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Yeahbut, this is a secondary evolution of the word "intellectual", quite separate from "intellect".

Yes, but, words and their meanings usually don't stand still. A secondary or tertiary meaning can easily become the primary or sole meaning. As for the word intellectual's devaluation, I was not thinking of prgamatists, but of anti-intellectuals, especially in US political history.


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#128449 - 05/11/04 07:33 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
reebecca Offline
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Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 4
It is probably the connotations I am looking to define. While the ability to learn intellect is not counterintuitive to me, I -again, without any form of factual reason- also agree with AnnaStrophic's claim that " 'Intellect suggests to me a type of intelligence. You can be intelligent without being intellectual, but not vice-versa.'" and the whole motor/power theory. Which would logically lead intellect to be some kind of higher, more evolved form of intelligence?






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#128450 - 05/11/04 07:39 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
RhubarbCommando Offline
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Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
I'm with wsieber on this. Intellect is having the faculty to understand; intelligence is understanding (i.e., using ones intellect.)

And, whilst I agree with the principle that pfranz is stating, I think that the disctinction he makes is that between intelligence (or even intellect) and common sense. Working, as I do, among academics, one soon dicovers that the former is always present, but the latter is a rather rarer commodity.


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#128451 - 05/11/04 08:05 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Jackie Offline

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Welcome aBoard, reebecca--good to have you. Good question, indeed. jheem, I was glad to see your expansions on your first statement, because I had misinterpreted it entirely.
I would agree that intellectual is more pejorative, but I would also say that it is considered pejorative because a large part of society uses it that way. (I for one don't.) It seems to be equated with terms such as "square", "nerd",
"snob", and at best, "pretentious".

As to the distinction between say an intelligent person and an intellectual person --that's a tricky one! I don't agree that "intelligence" necessarily always includes common sense, or that the implied opposite, intellectuals don't have common sense, is true. But maybe others have seen the words used in these circumstances. I haven't. If I had to get right down to it, I think I would go with (and I believe this fits wsieber's metaphor) saying that a person might be considered intellectual based on acquired knowledge--what they say, and that someone might be considered intelligent based more on what they do--how they act on knowledge/information, pre-acquired or just-learned. Augh, no--I take it back! I've heard people being described as intelligent who demonstrate by their verbal expressions lots of acquired knowledge! Maybe it's more that a person is considered an intellectual if they demonstrate knowledge that is more esoteric (in one area or more) than most peoples'.

Hmm--where would this instance fit? (And it doesn't necessarily have to be either of the above!) One day many years ago, I noticed at breakfast that I was out of milk. Later in the day I heard a report that we would get a heavy snowfall overnight. It took me till evening to put the two pieces of information together: that hey, it would be a lot easier if I went to the grocery this evening before the snow fell. So I did. What can I say? I was young, and hadn't been out on my own all that long.


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#128452 - 05/11/04 08:47 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Intellect refers to a willingness and ability to think deeply on a subject.

Intelligence refers to "how smart you are." It's used in many different ways. It's often used to mean "how much you know," which usage irks me. I think more commonly it's supposed to mean how well one can think. Intelligence is believed to be measured by the Intelligence Quotience, or IQ. I'm very skeptical of this. I think that IQ is what I would call "trivial intelligence."
If one accepts IQ as a measure of real intelligence, it may be true that intellectuals tend to be very intelligent.

I don't believe in common sense. First I don't believe it exists. Second, if it does exist, I don't think it's desirable. (However, I do hold to what Popper referred to as Commonsense Realism.) Nevertheless, Good Sense *is* a desirable thing. It's probably related to intelligence (real and trivial) in some way. I think Gardner is on the right track with multiple intelligences. Also, I completely disagree with the common view that wisdom is how well one uses one's intelligence. Instead I think it is another category of intelligence for which we don't have adequate description. (I mention this because it seems to me that Good Sense and Wisdom are probably related and might even be equivalent.)

Many intellectuals possess a superabundance of trivial intelligence, but are staggeringly poor thinkers. This realization came early on in my university experience and its onset (more aptly, "it's onslaught") initiated a period of profound depression and indifference. (I worked with a person who had published many dozens of papers on a particular subject on which I knew him to be almost entirely ignorant. He was a nice guy, had a few mildly interesting tales, and had the irritating knack of expressing the most trivial ideas in completely impenetrable language. There wasn't anything so straightforward that he was incapable of expressing it poorly. This was not a unique experience.)

k


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#128453 - 05/11/04 12:58 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
apples + oranges Offline
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Registered: 08/30/00
Posts: 46
Loc: Canada
I wonder how the use of "intelligence" as meaning "information" in international security figures in all this.


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#128454 - 05/11/04 01:21 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
musick Offline
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I wonder how the use of "intelligence" as meaning "information" in international security figures in all this.

FF called it "trivial intelligence". This goes to the point about intelligence being dependent upon intellect, and versa-vice.


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#128455 - 05/12/04 01:25 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
wsieber Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1027
Loc: Switzerland
I don't believe in common sense. First I don't believe it exists. You mean, sense is less common than one might think?


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#128456 - 05/12/04 07:30 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Faldage Offline
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A secondary or tertiary meaning can easily become the primary or sole meaning.

I don't think the meaning of intellect has been affected by the meaning of intellectual any more than the meaning of liberate has been affected by the meaning of liberal.

Not that I have any useful ideas about the meaning difference between intellect and intelligence. I think it's one of those word pairs that spark discussions about a lot of fine distinctions that aren't shared.


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#128457 - 05/12/04 07:34 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
RhubarbCommando Offline
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Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
If I understand FF correctly, intellect is the ability to calculate the effect of water running into a bath-tub at one rate and out at another; intelligence is the mind-power to reason that this is a waste of water; Common (or Good, if you really must) Sense tells you to put the plug in.

(Actually, I do have some sympathy with FF's dislike of Common Sense. As wseiber suggests, it isn't really so very common and, when it does occur, it isn't always sense. Common sense told many good people, for many centuries, that the earth is flat.


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#128458 - 05/12/04 07:37 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Faldage Offline
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Someone defined common sense as the set of prejudices one has developed by age twelve.


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#128459 - 05/12/04 08:06 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 01/23/02
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Military/espionage meanings are specialized and like any specialized meanings, they don't have to correspond to everyday meanings, or even to scientific ones. I'm guessing intelligence comes in some kind of "level."

I've heard the term "raw" intelligence, for example. Perhaps these are little bits and pieces that are acquired through disparate means. I can imagine that the great bulk of this unprocessed intelligence must be almost useless.

There could be various levels of processing of this intelligence. Ideally, you want a clear picture of what someone else is doing and thinking. This raw intelligence is a bunch of pieces of a jigsaw puzzle - except in a jigsaw puzzle, you know what you're trying to piece together. But intelligence services can only postulate what the picture looks like and then see how closely they can get the pieces they have to fit into something that looks like that. The raw information must be very spotty. I doubt the situation today is much like the situation just prior to World War II, when the Brits were intercepting Japanese diplomatic messages and we knew practically everything they were doing and thinking.

But it must be worse than this; that is, it's worse than just that some key pieces are missing - the person whose activities you are attempting to discern knows you are doing this and puts out false pieces. Also, the other people whom you rely on for intelligence put out false clues. And very possibly one's colleagues put out false clues.

You take what you have. You try to make little pictures from it. That's one level of processing. Then you try to fit the little pictures into successively bigger pictures. But all of this must be flavored by what you think the end picture already looks like. (I say "must," but that's only a guess.)

Anyway, I'm not sure of the relationship between the uses of the word intelligence in espionage vs mental capacity.

k




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#128460 - 05/13/04 05:20 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
raju Offline
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Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 24
Ferreting their worth in waste, I Googled for "wasted intelligence" and "wasted intellect". The count is 127 and 37 respectively. Much of the "wasted intelligence" phrase is properly used and gives an indication of intelligence present but not applied/improperly applied whereas much of wasted intellect looks like a misfit, and in most cases the writers' attempt is to express wasted application of intellect rather than the intellect itself. In brief, it's very difficult to think of how intellect can be wasted the way intelligence can be. Therefore intellect = intelligence + wisdom


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#128461 - 05/13/04 07:21 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
belMarduk Offline
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Hmm, your wasted intelligence post reminded me of a very common expression here in Canada...brain drain.

Education in Canada is relatively inexpensive so many people get a higher education. Salaries for the "in demand" jobs requiring higher education are much lower in Canada than those in the U.S. and Europe so we experience a lot of brain drain as our graduates emigrate to get higher paying jobs.


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#128462 - 05/13/04 07:29 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
sjmaxq Offline
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brain drain

Also common here in Zild, although a former PM once said that NZers who emigrate to Australia raise the average IQ of both countries.

_________________________
noho ora mai
http://maxqnzs.com/References.html

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#128463 - 05/13/04 07:46 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
AnnaStrophic Offline
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There's a plumbing company here called the Drain Brain, she offered helpfully.


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#128464 - 05/14/04 09:08 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Capfka Offline
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Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 1624
Loc: Utter Placebo, Planet Reebok
Trust you USns to get things back to front ...


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#128465 - 05/14/04 09:31 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
jheem Offline
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Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 1474
Loc: California

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#128466 - 05/14/04 10:05 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
RhubarbCommando Offline
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Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
I like it, jheem -


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#128467 - 05/14/04 02:22 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
TEd Remington Offline
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Interesting question that's been talked about lucidly below.

But in law there is only intellect, as in intellectual property. No one ever said that the copyrighted words "Bee bop a loo bop" or "Kookie; Kookie' lend me your comb" were intelligent property.

_________________________
TEd

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#128468 - 05/14/04 05:27 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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"In brief, it's very difficult to think of how intellect can be wasted the way intelligence can be. Therefore intellect = intelligence + wisdom"

If a person has a somewhat high intelligence, but seldom uses it to think deeply, then he is wasting his intelligence. He has intelligence, but does not use it.

If he thinks deeply about things that are silly, he is wasting his intellect.

OTOH, he might have a high intelligence (of the trivial type), but nevertheless think poorly when he attempts to think deeply.

I consider wisdom a kind of intelligence - one of course which has a synergy with the other kinds. I'm not sure of an actual equation, but it might go something like this:

intellect = intelligence + interest + diligence + discipline

Implicit in the formulation of intelligence would be judgement or discernment, experience (and learning from it), and maybe a bit of art, but I'm not sure.

k





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#128469 - 05/14/04 07:45 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Faldage Offline
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Trust you USns to get things back to fron

Who sez it's Usn's got it backerds?


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#128470 - 05/15/04 12:19 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Capfka Offline
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Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 1624
Loc: Utter Placebo, Planet Reebok
Who sez it's Usn's got it backerds?

Wh...why, I thought everyone knew that! Some things are just axiomatic! Don't waste your intell..., um,

(a) -ect
(b) -igence
(c) Neither of the above
(d{i}) Both of the above if one drives the other
(e{ii}) Both of the above if one drives the other, but the other way around
(e) Both of the above if they are cognates
(f) Both of the above if you feel like it ...

... worrying yore purty li'l haid about it, Faldo. This, too, shall farce.


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#128471 - 05/15/04 04:12 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
(a) -ect
(b) -igence
(c) Neither of the above
(d{i}) Both of the above if one drives the other
(e{ii}) Both of the above if one drives the other, but the other way around
(e) Both of the above if they are cognates
(f) Both of the above if you feel like it ...


I'll take one from column A and two from column B.


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#128472 - 05/17/04 01:17 AM Re: intelligence vs intellect
wsieber Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1027
Loc: Switzerland
In British society, clever men waste a great deal of time pretending to be stupid. (In France the situation is reversed.) - Not surprisingly, the quotation's author has a German name...



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#214450 - 03/11/14 11:28 PM Re: intelligence vs intellect [Re: reebecca]
starstern Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 1
Loc: Ny
intellect = the motivation to be logical
logic = to reason things as far its related to common sense
intelligent = logic inventory accumulated in his memory

am i wright ??

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