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What's your understanding of this phrase?
I hear it used as an either-or metaphor: offer the carrot but be prepared to use the stick; AHD defines it this way. But I visualize it as a carrot dangling from the end of a stick, just ahead of a donkey, for example, to keep him moving along.
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I use--well, think of it; I don't really use the phrase--it your way, AnnaS. The first time I ever heard it was at summer music camp, and that's the way it was explained. (Guess he needed to get us going!)
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From the internet:
Anyway, I didn’t realize there was a mystery. Then I looked up the expression in the “Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins” by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977). It says: “…carrot and stick. A riddle that seems to have confounded many students of language is the origin of the carrot and stick expression. Research in Aesop’s Fables, the Uncle Remus folk tales and other such sources didn’t turn up any answers.”
Mr. and Mrs. Morris cite a couple of instances where the expression was used -- a speech by Winston Churchill and the movie “Maltese Falcon” but it sounds like the animal was tempted with a carrot and beaten with a stick. I am sure this is wrong. The stick is used to keep the carrot out front, not to hit the animal. Mr. Churchill in a press conference, May 25, 1943, states: ‘We shall continue to operate on the Italian donkey at both ends, with a carrot and with a stick,”…
I hate to say this but I believe Mr. Churchill and Mr. and Mrs. Morris got it wrong.
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Interesting, Dr Bill. "Where" on the internet?
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Re: dangling a carrot ahead of a donkey: "offer the carrot but be prepared to use the stick"
Anyone who would choose "the stick" over the carrot is more of an ass than a donkey, AnnaS.
Stick a stick up a donkey's ass, and the donkey will bray like a jackass.
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This is the way I've heard it used, and where it comes from (to my knowledge)
There are two ways to make a reluctant mule or donkey (being very pig-headed animals) to move forward.
One of them is to dangle a carrot in front of its face. The carrot dangles on a string from a pole - just like a fishing pole. Mules & donkeys LOVE carrots so they go after it - going to get a treat (not realizing that it will always be a foot too far in front of them).
The same thing was done with water in the desert when the donkey or mule wouldn't move further anymore. They'd be thirsty, and go after the sloshing water gourd.
The other is to hit the mule or donkey in the ass with a stick (conceivably the pole broken in two since it is useless as a lure.)
The expression means...If you want to get somebody to do something, try to use a lure that will make them WANT to do it. Coax them with kindness.
If that doesn't work, then be prepared to use force.
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Interesting, belM, that your take encompasses both versions, just substituting 'pole' for 'stick' in the first.
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Re Coax them with kindness: If that doesn't work, then be prepared to use force.
This was also Teddy Roosevelt's favorite shtick:
"Speak softly and carry a big stick."
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Which would make Teddy, pedantically and euphonically, both trypherophonous and phallophorous.
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I understand the overt metaphor to be a carrot dangling from a stick, etc. In context, 'stick' is implicitly threatening, and carries with it a secondary metaphor which, since it is subordinated, is all the more ominous. I guess Churchill (see wwh) was just unpacking it. So thinks me.
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Quinion (worldwidewords.com) implies stick is alternative
to carrot:
"The Labour method is to apply a stick to accompany the carrot; unemployed young people will not be able to avoid taking up one of the limited options on offer, one of which is to take a subsidised job with a private firm. "
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'stick' is implicitly threatening, and carries with it a secondary metaphor which, since it is subordinated, is all the more ominous
You don't need a stick to dangle a carrot, but a stick will make your point stick a little bit better.
Any donkey who has been around the block a few times has seen the same stick dangling the carrot, dangling over his ass.
If he's a smart ass, he will always choose the carrot.
It's like serving a head of lettuce on a platter. It won't improve your salad, but it might improve your manners.
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For what it's worth -- BelMarduk's description fits exactly with my understanding.
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BelMarduk's description fits exactly with my understandingAnd the donkey's too, I reckon. [Which is not to make a donkey out of you, but a sage out of the donkey.  ]
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Carrot and stick reminded me of the story by Daudet about the young psychopath who got a job taking care of the Pope's mule at Avignon. He secretly teased it. The mule had to wait seven years before she got a chance to kick him, but when she did, she put him into orbit.
So if you're tempted to use a stick or other wise abuse a
mule, remember they have long memories. At least the Avignon one did.
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the Pope's mule at AvignonGive a mule a habit, and he is free to kick the abbot. Mules don't make a habit of wearing habits, but they might be better off if they did. When habits speak louder than words, habits are due for a change.
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The Pope's mule was mulier, not homme. No nunnery for her.
I've heard that in Napoleon's day, there was always a mule
that was the sweetheart of the regiment. Sounds risky.
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there was always a mule that was the sweetheart of the regiment
Taking advantage of a mule is a mug's game, wwh.
You can mug a mule, but you'd better watch out for his feet.
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Dear Grapho: I don't know anything about the sex life of
mules, nor about their gender. But attempting carnal knowledge of a male would be back to the Texan having sex
with the grizzly.
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But attempting carnal knowledge of a mule would be back to the Texan having sex with the grizzly.Well, I won't offer any censure, wwh, 'cause I'm not in a state of grace.
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But attempting carnal knowledge of a mule would be back to the Texan having sex with the grizzly.P.S. A mule is likely to take it in the end (in the end) but he doesn't have to like taking it.
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I agree with belmarduk's explanation as well. This headline from the Jakarta Post shows the way I've always heared it used. A word of explanation: Indonesia is currently undergoing an epidemic of what may be a new strain of dengue fever . http://www.thejakartapost.com/yesterdaydetail.asp?fileid=20040303.C04The etymology of dengue from: http://www.bartleby.com/61/9/D0130900.htmlAmerican Spanish, alteration (influenced by dengue, affectation) of Swahili -dinga. Bingley
Bingley
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Re: I agree with BelM myself: "The expression means...If you want to get somebody to do something, try to use a lure that will make them WANT to do it. Coax them with kindness."
There is a 3rd way, perhaps.
Drop the carrot and the stick, and treat the mule as an equal.
Mules can kick the habit, if the habit doesn't make a mule of himself.
How revolutionary is that?
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Dear Bingley: The article didn't explain why the whole population has to get involved immediately. The mosquito
that transmits the disease can breed in quite small quantities of water. Here's statement from Internet:
Research done in Trinidad by D.A Focks and D.D Chadee and published in the American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene A. 56. (1997) 159, has identified outdoor drums, water storage tanks, buckets, laundry tubs, discarded tires drink bottles and cans as the most common breeding areas for the Aides Egypti mosquito. Outdoor drums, tubs, buckets and small containers were found to account for over 90% of all Aedes aegypti pupae. It is reasonable to assume that these research results can be applied to the Tobago situation based on similarities in climate and culture.
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Outdoor drums, tubs, buckets and small containers were found to account for over 90% of all Aedes aegypti pupae.
We have the same problem with West Nile Virus (WNV) around the Great Lakes, wwh, borne by some exotic strain of mosquito.
Larvicides are used in the early Spring before the larvae hatch.
Crows are the 'canaries in the mines' of WNS.
When the crows start dropping, the larvacide is never far behind.
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Dear grapho: things are bad enough here in US about old tire breeding mosquitoes. But in Indonesia, the people can't as easily protect small water storage items.And I'll
bet millions of plastic containers have been scatterd, since
recycling not readily accomplished. And even in their droubt
years they must have millions of puddles. Joke on me, in
medical school the etymology given for "dengue" was Spanish
something like "dangeroso" = "dangerous" allegedly based
on gait of victims looking like a bully looking for a fight.
That never made sense to me. A really sick man can't look much like a bully.
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A really sick man can't look much like a bully.
Sounds like the med students didn't know a dang thing about dengue.
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I got sent to the Pacific with a medical lab, and had to
learn a lot about tropical medicine in a hurry. You can't
imagine what a headache it is to get those people to pay
attention to the simple things that would keep them from
being half sick all the time from parasitic diseases. One of the Filipino doctors I knew thought it a big joke that
to get Rockefeller money for educating their kids, they'd build beautiful cement latrines. But they wouldn't use them!
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If nature were left to itself, the site of Jakarta would basically be a river delta in swampland. And of course nature keeps trying to make a comeback, so yes pools of standing water are very hard to eradicate here. It doesn't help that the city has a lot of half-finished buildings whose owners went bankrupt or at least lost their appetite for building in 1998.
Also the traditional Indonesian bathroom consists of a tank of water you scoop over yourself to bathe. It'a great way to have a bath but does have its disadvantages in the current situation.
Bingley
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i live in the epi center for West Nile Virus in US- (the first cases of humans contracting it were less than 1 mile from my home at the time..
NYC has made a real effort to curb the disease. (as i recall, it was the vets at the NYZoological Society that first identified the virus, (with the help of CDC). several of the birds in captivity contracted the disease, since several of NYZS aviaries are large 'cages' made with fine mesh, so the birds have 'an outdoor' environment.
(the zoo doen't really 'collect' most species of water fowl, it just make really friendly environments, and attracts native birds to nest --some become year round residents!) the same is true for the peacocks.. they have the whole zoo as there 'cage'. out side the zoo is mostly concrete and traffic, the pea cocks and hens are not attracted to it. (once in while a pea cock or pea hen will decide to 'take up residence' in the area for the lions.. its always a bad idea!)
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once in while a pea cock ... will decide to 'take up residence' in the area for the lions.. its always a bad idea!
A pea cock getting in bed with a lion is certainly a "bad idea!", de Troy, but it would provide an interesting study in contrasts.
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Do you think the carrot and stick method is the best in this situation Bingley? The threat of a fine carries little weight to a person who has no money. Unless jail time is tacked onto that, then maybe. But then, how cruel would a government be if they jailed the poorest among them. It's a bad situation all round, that's for sure. I can see that offering incentives might work though. That is something that a poor person can benefit from at least. I remember reading about a fly epidemic when I was young. I don't remember the specifics (I was young quite a while ago  ) but I remember that the government offered kids a penny for every fly they brought in. I seem to recall that it helped a lot.
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Dear Bingley: Instead of hiring 70K nurses, the gov't
might do well to copy US Depression device, the Civilian
Conservation Corps: pay pennies to poor young men under
intelligent supervision to systematically clean up the
environment.
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