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#122337 02/18/04 08:43 PM
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The fragments that survived, or were rewritten from memory, are rathered garbled, too, even for religious texts. They are dated to about 1600 BCE. OTOH, the Rgveda is dated roughly to 2000 to 1500 BCE, although it was orally preserved for a long time before being written down. (I should caution that these are the dates arrived at by western linguists; Indian nationalists (Hindutva) have arrived at different numbers.)


#122338 02/19/04 05:31 PM
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Indian nationalists (Hindutva) have arrived at different numbers

This was my impression too. As I noted in a thread some forums up, the current (politically?) popular theory in Indian history is that the Indus Valley Civilisation gave rise to the Indo-European language group, and there was no invasion of the Aryas, but an evolution of their society.

I find it hard to swallow, but would like to see the evidence.

cheer

the sunshine warrior


#122339 02/19/04 05:35 PM
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Some more useless information that you might want to add to your collection of such! The head of a cultural/relgious institution in the South of India, near Madrasm has published a detailed treatise on the close similarities between the Zend Avesta and the Saama Veda (the second one after the Rig) and also on the common heritage of the Persians and the Indo Aryans.
Ravi, I thought the towers were really towers!! Malabar Hill has one!!!!??? Hard to believe the property sharks left that one alone!
Malabar Hill - a prime residential location in the South of Bombay with absolutely gorgeous views of the sea.


#122340 02/19/04 06:04 PM
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Ahhh but the Parsees look after their own, and the community is more than rich enough to resist the blandishments of the developers. Having said which, about 15-20 years ago the Parsees themselves used some of their large swathe of land on Malabar Hill to set up a small housing estate for 'distressed' Parsees. If you go beyond the Hanging Gardes, towards Kemps Corner, you'll see it on the right.

cheer

the sunshine warrior


#122341 02/19/04 07:03 PM
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As I noted in a thread some forums up, the current (politically?) popular theory in Indian history is that the Indus Valley Civilisation gave rise to the Indo-European language group, and there was no invasion of the Aryas, but an evolution of their society.

Ravi, I just saw this; missed it in the flurry.
I hadn't read this before. Where did you come across it; would like to read too. When you say Indus valley, I take it you mean the Harappans? The use of the term 'Invasion' has been debated I know and I confess to being an Anti-Invasionalist!




#122342 02/19/04 08:23 PM
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Check this out for starters:

http://www.hindubooks.org/david_frawley/myth_aryan_invasion/indian_civilization_an_indigenous_development/page5.htm


#122343 02/20/04 03:04 AM
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Shouldn't that be Chennai and Mumbai? Or have the old pre-PC names reasserted theirselves?


#122344 02/20/04 03:13 AM
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the current (politically?) popular theory in Indian history is that the Indus Valley Civilisation gave rise to the Indo-European language group

Only if you're Aryan linguistically, i.e., speaking an Indic IE language. The Dravidians (mainly Tamils in the stuff I've seen) have of course figured out that Harappa-Mohenjodaro civilisation spoke a Dravidian language. Also, the whole Aryan Invasion Theory is a bit of a strawman in that few linguists/archeologists these days hold to the classical hoardes of IE sweeping in from the Urheimat and conquering the autochthonous aborigines that Max Mueller et al imagined. I have some links on one of my blog entries:

http://www.bisso.com/ujg_archives/000223.html



#122345 02/22/04 07:08 PM
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Lovely links both of you! Thanks! jheem, a couple of links, (sarasvathi) are broken on that page.

The Brahuis in Iran and adjoining Western Pakistan speak a language, that is extremely close to the Dravidian ones in India....make of that in light of current discussion, what you will!

There are many Dravidian languages and *dialects in India, jheem....essentially all the four languages in the deep South - Tamil, Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam are Dravidian. Dravidian dialects are documented in Central India too. The four listed above have a definite Sanskrit influence and that has a lot to do with Brahminism.

It is however, only amongst the Tamils, that a serious anti-Brahmin movement arose in the mid sixties. The Brahmins are considered Aryan and the Tamil Brahminical hegemony over all intellectual/socio-cultural, not to mention, religious matters was what brought things to a pass. Tamilian Brahmins suddenly had a lot of issues such as race, culture and origins to contend with. Thankfully things died down, but there is and has always been a DEFINITE, palpable difference between the Brahminical way of life in the South, especially Tamil Nadu, and the rest of the population.

PS: Ravi, your link's made my page go wide


#122346 02/22/04 08:20 PM
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The Brahuis in Iran and adjoining Western Pakistan speak a language, that is extremely close to the Dravidian ones in India....make of that in light of current discussion, what you will!

Yes, but nobody's quite sure when they got there. I've seen suggestions that they imigrated to their current location from the south of Indian as recently as the 1500s CE, as mercenary soldiers. Not saying I guy it, but make of that what you will

There are many Dravidian languages and *dialects in India, jheem....essentially all the four languages in the deep South - Tamil, Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam are Dravidian. Dravidian dialects are documented in Central India too. The four listed above have a definite Sanskrit influence and that has a lot to do with Brahminism.

Yes, I know that, but the Tamilophones are the ones I'm most familiar with (as Tamil is the only Dravidian language I've read linguistics books about). I've read varying reports on the magnitude of Sanskrit loanwords in Tamil: from zero to more than 10%. It's a touchy subject, and I guess I should make a full disclosure here: almost all of the South Indians I've come to know are Tamilians. Also, we shouldn't forget that there are other language families represented in India besides Dravidian and IE.

As for influence, it runs both ways. There's definitely a non-IE substrate in Sanskrit, but whether this proves that there were Dravidians in the Sarasvati river area when Sasnkrit-speaking folks arrived or whether they were met up with in central or southern Indian is another matter. If we drop the pesky Aryan Invasion Theory, we're left with where the Sanskrit / Prakrit speakers were and were the Proto-Dravidian speakers were. It's a similar problem, years later, to the Persian Moghuls invading. And they did make it into the South.

It is however, only amongst the Tamils, that a serious anti-Brahmin movement arose in the mid sixties. The Brahmins are considered Aryan and the Tamil Brahminical hegemony over all intellectual/socio-cultural, not to mention, religious matters was what brought things to a pass. Tamilian Brahmins suddenly had a lot of issues such as race, culture and origins to contend with. Thankfully things died down, but there is and has always been a DEFINITE, palpable difference between the Brahminical way of life in the South, especially Tamil Nadu, and the rest of the population.

Yup, so I noticed that recently when I spent time in Tamilnadu. Of course it helped that I was staying with a rather conservative (religiously) Aiyer Brahman family.

And, please, I'd like to remind everybody that I'm trying to discuss this topic as neutrally as possible. So, I hope nobody gets offended. And, now back to our previously scheduled linguistic issues. --sivaramakrishnan (my real Hindu name) aka jheem


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