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#121905 - 02/02/04 07:45 AM Sun shone like Gould
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
I was listening to an audio cassette of a Raymond Chandler novel read by Elliott Gould. Gould was at his laid back best but I was surprised when he said something like “The sun shone that day…” and pronounced the word shone as ‘shown’ rather than to rhyme with ‘gone’. Is that the usual American sound for the word or is it perhaps either a regional or a Gould variation?


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#121906 - 02/02/04 07:53 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Dear dxb: I remember hearing a rather erudite clergyman
use that pronunciation many years ago,and he commented on it, but I can't remember what he said to justify his preference.


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#121907 - 02/02/04 07:54 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
TEd Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
If I had heard someone say "The sun Sean that day," I would have been perplexed, wondering what the heck he meant. Here on the left bank shone rhymes with cone.

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TEd

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#121908 - 02/02/04 08:48 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
I'm with TEd. never heard it shawn...

that's what you do to a sheep...

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formerly known as etaoin...

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#121909 - 02/02/04 08:56 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
left bank

I love this and intend to start using it immediately!

And yeah, dixbie, like the fellas said.


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#121910 - 02/02/04 09:34 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
tsuwm Offline
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Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10523
Loc: this too shall pass
here in flyover land it also sounds like shown, but then we learned a rubric that a final 'e' makes the previous vowel sound long (like in scone ;).


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#121911 - 02/02/04 09:39 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Long O is the onliest AHD4 recognizes.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/53/S0345300.html


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#121912 - 02/02/04 10:09 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
That's interesting. Most of the on-line dictionaries are American but I found that M-W recognises the British pronunciation, and apparently it is heard in Canada too. Don't know what they say up top in the antipodes. This is the M-W entry and I have included the etymology for the heck of it:

Main Entry: 1 shine
Pronunciation: 'shIn
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): shone /'shOn, esp Canadian and British 'shän/; or shined; shin·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scInan; akin to Old High German skInan to shine and perhaps to Greek skia shadow



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#121913 - 02/02/04 12:25 PM Re: Sun shone like Gould
hibernicus Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 79
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
That is extraordinary. I never knew Americans pronounce "shone" as homophonous with "shown". Round here, it's pronounced "shon", and it's a sign of how rarely the word is used in speech that I've never heard an American say the word on TV or film.

Similarly there are two variant pronunciations of "scone".


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#121914 - 02/02/04 12:26 PM Re: Sun shone like Gould
hibernicus Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 79
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
akin to Old High German skInan to shine and perhaps to Greek skia shadow

Up is down, black is white and shine is shadow. Those wacky indo-europeans!


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#121915 - 02/02/04 12:42 PM 'British'??
Jenet Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 81
Canadian and British 'shän?? Canadian perhaps, but I'm surprised an American dictionary lists obscure regional dialects from Britain. shän in the West Country, where they talks loik poirates perhaps, and in southern Ireland. shon for the rest of us, like shot and shop and Ron and Don.


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#121916 - 02/02/04 01:07 PM Re: 'British'??
Jackie Offline

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
shon for the rest of us, like shot and shop and Ron and Don Oh, that sounds so wrong to me! It's like tsuwm said: if there's an e on the end, that makes the vowel LONG. I can't think of one single word we use that has the shon sound. Sean comes close, but that's really more of a shawn, usually.


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#121917 - 02/02/04 01:12 PM Re: 'British'??
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
like shot and shop and Ron and Don

Of course, this presupposes that you know how the speaker pronounces 'shot and shop and Ron and Don.'


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#121918 - 02/02/04 01:48 PM Re: 'British'??
hibernicus Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 79
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
this presupposes that you know how the speaker pronounces 'shot and shop and Ron and Don.'

Yes and no. We don't know from this description how Jenet pronounces the word "shone" at the phonetic level. But the US/British distinction here is phonemic.

But your main point is correct - sounds in general and these vowels in particular are notoriously difficult to discuss in a text-based medium, because of the amount of regional variation, and assumptions that turn out not to be universal. For many Americans, "stock" and "stalk" are homophones, hence punning titles like "Silk Stalkings" and "The Squawk Exchange", that are incomprehensible or laboured to the European ear. So you can't really convey a pronunciation by appealing to the pronunciation of another word, unless you are pretty sure of how every reader pronounces that other word.


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#121919 - 02/02/04 02:57 PM Re: 'British'??
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
I can't think of one single word we use that has the shon sound.

What about "gone," as dixbie used in his example?


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#121920 - 02/02/04 03:10 PM Re: 'British'??
tsuwm Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 10523
Loc: this too shall pass
>I can't think of one single word..

while one, none and done don't sound like shon (I'd guess), they are exceptions to the long vowel "rule".


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#121921 - 02/02/04 03:32 PM Re: 'British'??
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
I've usually heard shone and scone to rhyme with on. Scone with a long o denotes someone who has been to Britain recently and shone is a bit high-falutin for the colonies. (except when someone is shown the door) But then I gave up on expecting English to follow its own rules long ago.
It is very important, when buying a foreign phrase book to get one written in your own neighbourhood or all the little pronunciation tips turn into slips. eg the Berlitz book that made a distinction between the "oo" sound in school and the "u" sound in tube. In Canada (Western anyway) they are identical to that in roof. There is no Canadian equivilant that I can think of to the American vowel in roof.


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#121922 - 02/02/04 03:40 PM Re: 'British'??
Capfka Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 1624
Loc: Utter Placebo, Planet Reebok
I'm with Dixbie in both locations (down here in GB and up there in NZ).


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#121923 - 02/02/04 04:21 PM Re: 'British'??
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
Quite a while ago, I asked about the pronunciation of
"The Stone of Scone". I didn't get an answer. What say
you now?


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#121924 - 02/02/04 05:05 PM shone
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
I grew up saying shone as in "shown". People in Central Florida pronounce it both ways ("shown" or "shawn"), depending on where they are from.


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#121925 - 02/02/04 05:49 PM Re: Sun shone like Gould
sjmaxq Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 3230
Loc: Te Ika a Maui
If I had heard the passage I would have have wondered what it was that the sun was shown. As Capfka said, "shone" rhymes with "gone" up here.

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noho ora mai
http://maxqnzs.com/References.html

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#121926 - 02/02/04 06:33 PM Re: 'British'??
stales Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 866
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
shon for the rest of us, like shot and shop and Ron and Don Oh, that sounds so wrong to me! It's like tsuwm said: if there's an e on the end, that makes the vowel LONG. I can't think of one single word we use that has the shon sound. Sean comes close, but that's really more of a shawn, usually.

Right back at ya Jackie. In OzLand it's shon - and scon. No trailing vowel rule applied.

And as for Shorn - no way does Sean come out the same as shon!

Finally I betcha don't say "own" when pronouncing the number preceding two!! (Edit: ....as mentioned by others)

100 degrees F today - busy trying to think of reasons to stay in the office. Certainly don't want to go driving about in my 40yo, vinyl seated/non air conditioned marque!

stales


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#121927 - 02/02/04 06:57 PM Re: 'British'??
consuelo Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 2636
Loc: Caribbean
It's 30F and snowing here, Stales. Tradeja.

Here on the fourth coast we all say shone as "shown".


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#121928 - 02/02/04 07:34 PM Re: 'British'??
Father Steve Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/06/00
Posts: 2788
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Jackie sez: "if there's an e on the end, that makes the vowel LONG."

But, then again, there are none, done and abalone.


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#121929 - 02/02/04 07:37 PM Re: 'British'??
Father Steve Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/06/00
Posts: 2788
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Zed sez: "There is no Canadian equivilant that I can think of to the American vowel in roof."

Loofa? as in the sponge?




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#121930 - 02/02/04 08:19 PM Re: Sun shone like Gould
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
wondered what it was that the sun was shown

Unless, perhaps, you noticed that there wasn't a was in there. If there was a was it would have been 'The sun was shined …'


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#121931 - 02/03/04 04:30 AM Re: 'British'??
hibernicus Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 79
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
Zed sez: "There is no Canadian equivilant that I can think of to the American vowel in roof."

Loofa? as in the sponge?


I think the American pronunciation of "roof" that Zed is referring to uses the same vowel as "book". I don't know how widespread this is, but that is how Oliver Hardy pronounced it. I say "roof" using the same vowel as "root", which is pretty standard this side of the water.


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#121932 - 02/03/04 05:57 AM Re: 'British'??
consuelo Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 2636
Loc: Caribbean
It can go either way this side of the pond...tomato tomahto


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#121933 - 02/03/04 05:59 AM Re: 'British'??
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
pronunciation of
"The Stone of Scone"


Dear Dr Bill, here you go:

The Stone of Scone (pronounced ‘Skoon’, rhyming with 'schooner') is named after a location close to Perth in Scotland and, as you know, has no connection with scones to eat! The mound at Scone where the Scottish kings were crowned has had many different names one of which was Boot Hill – which came from an ancient tradition whereby emissaries swore fealty to their king by wearing the earth of their own lands in their foot-bindings or boots.
So not all Boot Hills were to be found in the wild, wild-west!

A link about the Stone of Scone:

http://www.durham.net/~neilmac/stone.htm

Strange that this is a Canadian site. But once again it won't open for me!



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#121934 - 02/03/04 06:00 AM Re: 'British'??
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
USns says 'root' both ways, too. 'Route' comes out all three ways.


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#121935 - 02/04/04 03:09 AM Re: Sun shone like Gould
TEd Remington Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
Sho 'nuff, you done started a shown huff.

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TEd

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