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I don't remember seeing 'empyreal' before,only 'empyrean'.
Webster 1913 seems to emphasize 'fire' in 'empyreal' and
seventh sphere in 'empyrean'.
Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Definition: \Em`py*re"an\ (?; 277), n. [See {Empyreal}.]
The highest heaven, where the pure element of fire was
supposed by the ancients to subsist.
The empyrean rung With hallelujahs. --Milton.
Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Definition: \Em*pyr"e*al\, a. [L. empyrius, empyreus, fiery, Gr. ?,
?, in fire, fiery; ? in + ? fire. See {In}, and {Fire}.]
Formed of pure fire or light; refined beyond a["e]rial
substance; pertaining to the highest and purest region of
heaven.
Go, soar with Plato to the empyreal sphere. --Pope.
{Empyreal air}, oxygen gas.
\Em*pyr"e*al\, n.
Empyrean. --Mrs. Browning.
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Empurios 'fiery' exhibits another use of in- as an intensive prefix, rather than a privative or illative one.
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Empurios = fiery. Empurios is Greek here, yes? How does the word break down further? Does 'pur' = fire? Edit: I see the relationship between pyre and pur; which came first? Does pur = fire or was pur a form after pyre. If so, how very, very interesting in that fire is often seen as a symbol of purification, not only in ceremony, but also in dreams.
I tried finding empurios to no avail, but did find this on one of onelook's references:
"Empúries is town in the Mediterranean coast of the Catalan comarca of Empordà. It was founded by the ancient Greeks with the name of Emporion (that is market)."
...and that was interesting because of the relationship between Emporior and emporiums, which are markets of sorts.
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Pur is fire in Greek. The vowel ypsilon used to be transcribed as 'y' but is usually transcribed as 'u' these days. At some point in Greek's phonological history, 'y' was pronounced /u/, but soon came to be pronounced as /ü/ and then /i/. If I could chance the Unicode Greek font in AWADtalk it might be clearer for those who already know Greek. Anywho, the root is cognate with the English word fire, from *pewor, *pur- 'fire'. Other fire roots include the one that Latin ignis and Sanskrit agni are related to, *egnis ~ *ognis 'fire'. In the end all these roots (here [cribbed from Pokorny dictionary] and in the A-H appendix [same source, but with some independent scholarship added]) are reconstructions. It's important to realize that there's no proof one way or another of if they existed, how they might have been pronounced, and what they meant. It's best to think of them as a shorthand, mnemonic device for comparing all the daughter languages' words.
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Ah, not sure whether this is coincidence or not, jheem, but I'd been interested in a long time before coming to AWAD in the long-time-ago dictates that the vowels were 'a, e, i, o, u and sometimes y and w.'
As a child I could easily figure out the first six, but the 'w' threw me for years until finding 'cwm' in an American Heritage dictionary, and voila! There was that 'w' sounding like a 'u.' In fact, I was very curious about other 'w' words in the language after having found still another in American Heritage: crwth. So I came to this place a little over two years ago and posed my question about 'w' vowell words beyond cwm and crwth. Well, the answers came in. I believe Maverick may have been the one who provided a very long list of 'w' as vowell words, quite impressive.
Now to learn from you that even 'y' had possessed some sort of 'u' sounds is even more intesting--and the connections, both practical and metaphorical, abound: The empyreal itself--and the thought of the purest realm as being the sky itself--and not so pure today because of how we pollute it with our advance forward (or is it backward?). Pyres and purification, when pyres actually are polluting. There's a metaphysical kind of fiery purity, and then there's the impurity of actual fires.
"Y" has gained quite more signficance in my way of thinking, so I thank you very much for your most valuable instruction here on this thread. I'm sure others are as very interested in what you've provided.
Addendum: Here's mav's list from years gone by of the 'w' words, for anyone who's interested. I saved the list intentionally along with his comments--Mav', I'm 99% sure it was you who wrote what follows!:
"dwr = water
swn = sound
those two should have a 'to' or roof over the 'w' - like this letter's: û - but I can't seem to find that in the standard character sets...)
ffrwd = misty, damp (I think)
twr = tower
twll = hole
bwlch = gap (in hills etc), pass
hwn = that
pwll = pool
drws = door
drwg = bad or naughty
drwm = drum
dwbl = double
gwrth = counter or contra
gwr = man (and interestingly gwrach = witch!)
lwc = luck
llwgr = corruption
dwl = dull, stupid
dwndwr = hubub, babble [ dwndwrdoondoor]
dwthwn = day (tho around here we woud use dydd)
llwnc = gulp, swallow
dwrn = fist, handle, hilt
llwm = bare, destitute
mwrthwt = hammer
cwrw - BEER!
wydd = goose (I think this is a soft mutation of gwydd)
cwn = dog or dogs (depending on where in Wales)
cwl = cool, wicked (modern transliteration)
cwrwgl = coracle (traditional withy & skin fishing boat)
mwlwg mwlwg
mwlwg = refuse, sweepings
mwng - mane (horse's)
pwt = short ('Gog' or North Welsh)
cwcw = cuckoo
cwpl = couple; tie-beam
cwmwl = cloud
cwt is one that I like since it has quite varied meanings depending on context: tail, skirt, queue, hut, sty - the common feature seems to be something as an appendage.
cwr = edge, border or skirt, whereas cwrs = course
mwrllwch = fog, mist, vapour (another Gog term, my kids said) and one for Dr Bill (YCLIU!): cwthwm"
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Dear WW: All I could find was picture of a beautiful Springer Spaniel. Bit of trivia "springer" comes from their
habit of jumping with head high to get view of birds ahead
in tall grass. Surprisingly they are also valiant fighters.
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Well, y and w are also called semi-vowels sometimes. It's true that in Welsh w is used for /u/ and y is used for /i/. In the IPA, /y/ is the German ü sound, that is a high front rounded vowel. /i/ is a high front unrounded vowel. In other words, you can pronounce /y/ the same as you would the /i/ just cause your lips to round as if pronouncing /u/. Same with /e/ and /œ/: mid front unrounded and mid front rounded respectively, with /œ as German ö.
A w is after all a double-u. And in Spanish, they call a y, the i-griega, or Greek i. Hope this helps. Thatnks for the list, if you're ever in a library take a look at a Welsh dictionary and marvel at all the double-yews as vowels.
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Gosh, isn't it fascinating to read real journals from earlier times? AND--I finally found that eglwys means church; unfortunately I was unable to find anything on poor old St. Eirw--he must have been a rather minor saint. I found this site, too, and can't resist posting rather a lot of its opening words:
It is well known that the 20th century Welsh have inherited a very restricted range of surnames. The choice is predominantly between Jones, Davies, Evans, Williams, and Thomas, not one of which is a Welsh name.
Almost certainly, the most significant factor in determining the final outcome was the persistent survival, in Wales, of the system of naming. This traditional method, common to most pastoral peoples, involved identifying a man by his father's Christian name and sometimes by his grandfather's, too. It was the practice of all the Celtic nations in Britain: the Welsh, the Scots, and the Irish. If a man's name was Cawrdaf, and he decided to call his son Dogfael, the young man would be known as Dogfael son of Cawrdaf. His son, in turn, might be Carwed son of Dogfael son of Cawrdaf.
The Welsh word for son is mab or map, depending on whether it precedes a vowel or a consonant. The Irish and Scottish word is mac. The small difference illustrates one of the main distinctions between the two surviving branches of the Celtic Language: 'q' Celtic and 'p' Celtic. Gaelic, i.e. Irish, Scottish and Manx are 'q' Celtic languages; hence Maq = Mac. Welsh, Cornish, and Breton are Brythonic, or 'p' Celtic languages, hence Map = Mab. http://www.korrnet.org/welsh/files/jbdavies.html
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mmmm, fascinating stuff, Jackie - and the 'map' or 'mab' also gest changed in another way - not just shortened to 'ap', as in Elin ap Gwynedd, but also mutated to 'fab', as in 'Dewi James ai fab' (and sons).
Not entirely spoiled for me to realise it was aptually a different village of the same name, but!
edit:
> But, of all the European male names, John is the most common. Welsh, like Latin had no 'J,' so John came to us originally in the form of Ieuan...
Not only that but James is rendered in Welsh as Iago, like in Santiago...
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Very interesting. Though I've been to Cymru, I never managed to get to one of those great villages where the name had more letters than inhaibtants. For others who may wonder, the word is a compound: eglwys 'church' (as somebody pointed out in another thread, a loanword from Latin ecclesia) and Eirw 'a saint's name'. Does anybody know what Eriw's name is in Latin?
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Is it possible that "Eiru" is not a name, but a title,
equivalent of "saint". I'm thinking of German "Ehre"/
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Not only that but James is rendered in Welsh as Iago, like in Santiago.
Yes, but Hebrew has no /dZ/ j-sound either. James is one of the English forms of ya’akobh. You can see all kinds of transformation of the name throughout European languages: Italian Giacomo, Spanish Diego (from Santiago, i.e., Saint James), Jaime, French Jacques. The thing about "Welsh" surnames is that the Wlesh didn't tradtionally have surnames, like many peoples throughout the world, but worked with a system of patronymics. Many folks were forced by government decree to adopt family names sometime in the late 18th century / early 19th century. Cf. Jews in the Russian Empire. Most of the names ending in -baum and -stein date from that era. One of my favorite onomastic prefixes is Ffitz from Anglo-Norman fils 'son'. The double eff is /f/ in Welsh whereas single eff is /v/.
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mav's second site says The church is dedicated to St. Eirw . Afraid I just assumed the saint was a "him".
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I notice there's a Eglwyswen (Whitchurch, 'white church') nearby. The name could contain other than a saint's name, n'est-ce pas? White in Welsh is gwyn, which after soft mutation gives us wyn, or in this case (?) wen. Is it possible that the second part of the compound is something like gwrw or geirw? I'm not sure. Probably should just have Mav ask one of the local historians or pastors at one of the churches. BTW, Sanskrit guru means 'heavy' literally, as well as 'teacher'. Related to Latin gravitas.
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mm, I've tried that, nuncle, and there seems to be a bit of confusion as to whether the name does actually derive from a a putative saint about which damn-all is known  Another theory has it that 'wrw' derives from a word that translates as 'acre', though I fergit the prezact etymology just now. Tell me if you get any more inspired thoughts! OK, it's home to cook supper ~ have a great weekend folks.
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well, this suddenly struck me as I saw all those "w"'s go by. My last name is Grow, and an uncle a while back traced our North American lineage back to one John Grow, who lived in Ipswich, Mass, arriving on the shores around 1640, IIRC. one book I found, "the History of Newbury, VT" states that he came "from Wales". my Father inquired of some sort of authority in Wales who said that Grow didn't sound like much of a Welsh name. but, I wonder, might it have been Grw? would that even be likely? I am just really curious, and would love to be able to share some info with my family.
formerly known as etaoin...
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eta-- Almost anything's possible when it comes to personal names, family history, etc. Took a look at an English surname dictionary and there's no Grow in there, but there is Grew and Grewcock (li'l Grew) from AN la grue 'crane'. Thing about the 'w' in Welsh is, I'm not sure it was used all that often in Middle Welsh (which was ending around the time of your ancestor's emigration). Good luck.
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thanks, jheem. it's an on-going project, so something will surface someday...
formerly known as etaoin...
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So maybe you don't grow, but you grew, et'...
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cwte, ww.
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Wow, eta, maybe you are indeed of Welsh extraction--cool! But according to the site I put above, you'll have a heckuva time doing genealogy. I found a dictionary site where you can enter a word and have it bring it up any word that it's a part of; nothing on grw by itself, but here's the page**--I like the purr version, myself! http://oldweb.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconForms.html**Ok, just did a preview and found that it won't let you go to the specific page, just the opening one. Type in grw and set it for Partial word.
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In reply to:
Pur is fire in Greek. ... Anywho, the root is cognate with the English word fire, from *pewor, *pur- 'fire'. Other fire roots include the one that Latin ignis and Sanskrit agni are related to, *egnis ~ *ognis 'fire'.
I remember as a teenager reading a story (I forget the title) by HP Lovecraft or somebody of that sort where an important plot point was an alleged etymological connection between Gk pur/pyr and pyramid. Was this just the product of Lovecraft's overheated imagination or is there indeed such a connection?
Bingley
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Was this just the product of Lovecraft's overheated imagination or is there indeed such a connection?
Not sure if it was Lovecraft's or one of his sources. Could be. But it might also be a loanword from Egyptian.
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Connection between pur and pyramid, Bingley? Firemid? Yes, that works for me.
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From AHD:
pyre (pîr)
n.
A heap of combustibles for burning a corpse as a funeral rite.
A pile of combustibles.
[Latin pyra, from Greek purâ, from pûr, fire.]
pyr·a·mid (pĭr'ə-mĭd)
n.
1.
a. A solid figure with a polygonal base and triangular faces that meet at a common point.
b. Something shaped like this polyhedron.
2.
a. A massive monument of ancient Egypt having a rectangular base and four triangular faces culminating in a single apex, built over or around a crypt or tomb.
b. Any of various similar constructions, especially a four-sided Mesoamerican temple having stepped sides and a flat top surmounted by chambers.
3. The transactions involved in pyramiding stock.
4. Anatomy. A structure or part suggestive of a pyramid in shape.
v., -mid·ed, -mid·ing, -mids.
v.tr.
1. To place or build in the shape of a pyramid.
2. To build (an argument or thesis, for example) progressively from a basic general premise.
3. To speculate in (stock) by making a series of buying and selling transactions in which paper profits are used as margin for buying more stock.
v.intr.
1. To assume the shape of a pyramid.
2. To increase rapidly and on a widening base.
3. To pyramid stocks.
[Latin p[ymacr]ramis, p[ymacr]ramid-, from Greek pûramis, probably from Egyptian pimar.]
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probably from Egyptian pimar
The common Egyptian word for pyramid is mr.
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formerly known as etaoin...
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There are a lot of words with root "pyr-"
Previous Dictionary Browser Next
pyrolatry
pyroligneous
pyroligneous acid
pyrolignic
Pyrolignite
Pyrolignous
Pyrolithic
Pyrologist
Pyrology
pyrolusite
pyrolytic
Pyromagnetic
Pyromalate
Pyromalic
pyromancer
pyromancy
pyromania
pyromaniac
Pyromantic
pyrometer
For instance, all petroleum products are made by pyrolysis,
in which the very long carbon chains are broken into shorter
chains. The long chains are lubricating oils and wax from one type of oil, and asphalt in the other kind.
The middle length chains are kerosene. And just a bit shorter, petrol,gasoline. Of course in this process oxygen
has to be excluded. The alchemists knew how to make methyl
alcohol by "destructive distillation" of wood. Most methyl
alcohol is now made from methane by hydrogenation.
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Your link gave me an error message, mav. I would love to see it.
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post-office shop Oh, WOW: I've BEEN there!!! [eager puppy face e]
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I love the recurrence of some of these threads!
I don't know much about the Welsh language, but must tell those interested that it is said my husband's ancestors would have spelled 'Woosley' differently if they had known
that the English 'Woolsey's were already here and would later accuse them of misspelling!
Actually, in parts of the US till today, Woosley sounds like
'Oosley', and I have been told that old records in Virginia
and possibly North Carolina actually spell the name 'Ousley'
or maybe 'Oeusley'.
Not much like grW, but still--
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So what's it mean, "Church of the twisted tongue"?
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