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#119879 - 01/13/04 07:10 PM I am not a dowager.. or in my dotage..
of troy Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
all the wimple and nun stuff.. and i thought about dowager, and its relationship to dowery...

which are related (not to big a leap) to donation.. and that led me to do.. as an EI root..

ENTRY: d-
DEFINITION: To give. Oldest form *de3-, colored to *do3-, contracted to *d-.
Derivatives include betray, surrender, vend, dose, and antidote.
1a. Zero-grade form *d-. dado, date1, dative, datum, die2; add, betray, edition, perdition, render, rent1, surrender, tradition, traitor, treason, vend, from Latin dare, to give; b. Greek dosis, something given (see 4 below). 2. Suffixed form *d-no-. donation, donative, donor; condone, pardon, from Latin dnum, gift. 3. Suffixed form *d-t(i)-. a. dot2, dowager, dower, dowry; endow, from Latin ds (genitive dtis), dowry; b. dacha, from Russian dacha, gift, dacha, from Slavic *datja; c. samizdat, from Russian samizdat, samizdat, from dat', to give. 4. Suffixed form *d-ro-. lobster thermidor, Pandora, from Greek dron, gift. 5. Reduplicated form *di-d-. dose; anecdote, antidote, apodosis, epidote, from Greek didonai, to give, with zero-grade noun dosis (< *d-ti-), something given. (Pokorny d- 223.)

http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE114.html

what an intesting collection of words -- who'd a thought betray would be related? -- and i never made the connections between dora (as in pandora) and donation..duh!
it seems perfectly obvious now!

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#119880 - 01/13/04 07:23 PM Re: I am not a dowager.. or in my dotage..
jheem Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 1474
Loc: California
who'd a thought betray would be related?

Yes, betray is from betrayen from OFr trair from tradere from trans- plus dare. Dora as in the names Doris and Theodore. Does everybody know that Pokorny is online? Sort of. Plus a whole bunch of other great dictionaries, like Vasmer. Fantastic resource for etymologists of every stripe.

http://iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl/ied/



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#119881 - 01/13/04 07:26 PM Re: I am not a dowager.. or in my dotage..
sjmaxq Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 3230
Loc: Te Ika a Maui
I keep getting "connection refused" when I try that link.

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http://maxqnzs.com/References.html

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#119882 - 01/13/04 07:41 PM Re: I am not a dowager.. or in my dotage..
jheem Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 1474
Loc: California
I keep getting "connection refused" when I try that link.

Yes, I noticed after I linked that it's down. It seems to be on a flakey server cuz I've had problems with it before. It is worth the wait though.


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#119883 - 01/22/04 11:45 AM Re: I am not a dowager.. or in my dotage..
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Very interesting word links, of troy. What an odd feeling to see all these words about acquisition being applied to females. Kind of disturbing to this female. Now, if I can just find that key to my chastity belt.
;-)



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#119884 - 01/22/04 06:51 PM Re: I am not a dowager.. or in my dotage..
hibernicus Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 79
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
Yes, betray is from betrayen from OFr trair from tradere from trans- plus dare.

"Tradere", "vendere", etc. are 3rd conjugation, while the root "dare" is 1st declension. Note also - "sedeo": I sit; "sedo": I cause to be seated.

In English we have transitive/intransitive pairs like lay/lie and set/sit (cf German legen/liegen and setzen/sitzen).

I wonder if "trans-dare" -> tradere and "venum-dare" -> vendere are examples of a similar pattern?

Do ut des.


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#119885 - 01/23/04 12:02 AM Re: I am not a dowager.. or in my dotage..
jheem Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 1474
Loc: California
Good question. Trouble with vendeo and tradeo is that they come pretty late in the game, 5th century or later. Meillet suggests that the tra(ns)dare to tran(sd)ere is because of a confusion of dare and the -dere in verbs like credere from dhe:- 'place'. Cf. Latin separare to French severer.


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