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#115744 - 11/12/03 02:41 PM "have got"?
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Is using "have got" together really proper? It seems redundant to me and doesn't sound correct, yet I observe journalists using this quite often.

Instead of:
"They've got the best idea."

Why not:
"They have the best idea."

?


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#115745 - 11/12/03 02:47 PM Re: "have got"?
maahey Offline
addict

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
to my mind...

have got an idea - probably implies obtaining help from outside apart from one's own effort

have an idea - implies pure creativity. An idea that is truly self inspired.

Any takers?



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#115746 - 11/12/03 02:53 PM It's hoi polloi time again
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Hey you!

I remember from my youth being told that 'only the lower classes' (they didn't mince words in my youth) use 'have got'. This didn't, I suspect, stop Shakespeare and other luminaries using it whenever they felt it appropriate (Shakespeare's an easy one, since he happily broke anything we consider a grammatical rule).

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#115747 - 11/12/03 06:16 PM Re: have too got class
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
I may be lower but I have got class.
Seriously ,tho' we do use have to modify the tense of other verbs (I have been using it), why not this one?


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#115748 - 11/13/03 12:50 AM Re: "have got"?
Bingley Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
'Have got' always indicates possession, but 'have' need not do so. For example: She's got a bath (not just a shower) v. She has a bath (every morning).


Bingley
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Bingley

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#115749 - 11/13/03 07:39 AM Re: "have got"?
dellfarmer Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/13/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Vermont (US)
I agree with Bingly here. "Have got" should imply possession or receipt. People often say, for example, "I've got a cold," but, grammatically speaking, they'd be more correct to say "I have a cold."

In a slightly different context, one might say, for example, "I was with my ailing nephew, and now I've gotten a cold." Note, however that one would use "gotten" here, instead of got.

Similarly, I think, one might say, "I got it in the mail," to express receipt of a letter; but one could say, "I have gotten it in the mail," to imply that the letter is now in possession of the lettercarrier.

Occasionally, I think, it's fairly common usage to use have got for emphasis, as in: "You have GOT to be kidding!"

The 'have got' construction has been around forever. I remember the old TV program I've Got A Secret. When we were learning our grammar, way back then, I called this to my teacher's attention and, though she was a pretty strict grammarian herself, she admitted that this had escaped her notice, gave me extra points for my vigilance.

Interestingly enough, the show was sponsored by a cigarette company (yes, I'm that old), whose catch-phrase was "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should". This, of course, should be: ...as a cigarette should.

But I digress.

Ron.
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#115750 - 11/13/03 07:53 AM Re: "have got"?
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
For me, it's more of a mouth feel thing; seems the distinction is losing ground. Also, at the risk of starting Revolutionary War III, would it be fair to say that Brits use "have got" a lot more often, and in more contexts, than us North American colonials? And what about y'all antipodean up-overs?


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#115751 - 11/13/03 10:36 AM Re: "have got"?
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
As the doughty sunshine warrior (??) says, we were taught at school that ‘got’ used in this sense was redundant and not proper usage. “He told me to get it, so I got it” was just about acceptable, but rather an ugly construction and it was safest to avoid ‘got’ altogether. It is, nevertheless, frequently used.

‘Gotten’ is strictly US usage and I don’t think I have heard it used here in the UK other than in fun.




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#115752 - 11/13/03 11:16 AM Re: "have got"?
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Agree - gotten, though of respectable provenance (I understand), is not used by UKians.

And 'got' appears to have been creamed by cod snobbery. Just as you are unlikely ever to see the word 'me' in business letters - all the anxious arrivistes use 'myself'.

Bless.

cheer

the sunshine "more doughy than doughty" warrior


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#115753 - 11/13/03 12:14 PM Re: "have got"?
maahey Offline
addict

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
Is no one other than me (sorry shanks, ..myself ) getting a strong feeling of 'procure' with 'have got'?


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#115754 - 11/13/03 01:26 PM Re: "have got"?
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Well it depends. Do you think of Pandar as a 'have-gotter'?

the sunshine "it's only me" warrior

a/k/a

the sunshine "I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts" warrior


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#115755 - 11/13/03 07:29 PM Re: "have got"?
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
I agree with Bingly here. "Have got" should imply possession or receipt. People often say, for example, "I've got a cold," but, grammatically speaking, they'd be more correct to say "I have a cold."

In a slightly different context, one might say, for example, "I was with my ailing nephew, and now I've gotten a cold." Note, however that one would use "gotten" here, instead of got.


yabut, yabut,
how come you can say "I am with my nephew."(who is very cute by the way) meaning present tense.
and "I was with..." meaning past tense that ended in the past.
and "I have been with ..." meaning past tense that extends to or stops at the present. OR emphasis ("I have so been with...")
and "I have" present
and "I got" past
but not "I have got" continuing past or emphasis.
Why shouldn't you use "have" to modify the verb for "be in possesion of" in the same way it modifies other verbs.


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#115756 - 11/13/03 08:33 PM Re: "have got"?
Jackie Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11605
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
creamed by cod snobbery. ???


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#115757 - 11/13/03 08:39 PM Re: It's hoi polloi time again
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Hi Ravi!

I remember from my youth being told that 'only the lower classes' (they didn't mince words in my youth) use 'have got'.

Funnily enough, I recall being told the same thing by more than one English teacher.

For whatever reason, "have got" sounds common to me. But if it's good enough for William Shakespeare, I suppose I should not complain. Still...

I dusted off my Harper's English Grammar and read the following:

"Got means have or possess or obtain or secure. Use it sparingly if at all after have. Some authorities justify have got for the sake of emphasis, as I have got my man. Do not use got for is or was; I got hit for I was hit is substandard."


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#115758 - 11/13/03 08:59 PM Re: It's hoi polloi time again
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
"He has been being got at."
Parse that, professor


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#115759 - 11/13/03 09:04 PM Re: It's hoi polloi time again
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
"He has been being got at."

Oh God, my eyes!





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#115760 - 11/13/03 09:43 PM Re: It's hoi polloi time again
slithy toves Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 320
Loc: Sarasota, Florida, US
Why do I keep thinking about this old ditty? (As a lyricist Tom Lehrer's really got the stuff.)

I love my friends and they love me
We're just as close as we can be
And just because we really care
Whatever we get, we share!

I got it from Agnes
She got it from Jim
We all agree it must have been
Louise who gave it to him

Now she got it from Harry
Who got it from Marie
And ev'rybody knows that Marie
Got it from me

Giles got it from Daphne
She got it from Joan
Who picked it up in County Cork
A-kissin' the Blarney Stone

Pierre gave it to Shiela
Who must have brought it there
He got it from Francois and Jacques
Aha, lucky Pierre!

Max got it from Edith
Who gets it ev'ry spring
She got it from her Daddy
Who just gives her ev'rything

She then gave it to Daniel
Whose spaniel has it now
Our dentist even got it
And we're still wondering how

But I got it from Agnes
Or maybe it was Sue
Or Millie or Billie or Gillie or Willie
It doesn't matter who

It might have been at the pub
or at the club, or in the loo
And if you will be my friend, then I might ...
(Mind you, I said "might" ...)
Give it to you!




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#115761 - 11/14/03 12:05 AM Re: "have got"?
Bingley Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
Nobody ever told me that 'have got' was common. We were advised not to use too many gets in succession (avoid: I got up early but by the time I got downstairs my brother had got all the good cereal. I got my own back when we were getting on the bus because I got him all embarrassed in front of this girl he wants to get off with .....).

The get passive is mainly used in speaking and is useful. It's only used for actions and not states so it resolves the ambiguity in "The window was broken". Are we talking about the fact that the window was in several pieces or about something that happened to the unoffending pane of glass? If we say "The window got broken", it must mean the latter. It seems a perfectly natural extension of the difference between "She was drunk" and "She got drunk."

I think passives with get also imply that without actually performing the action, the subject (if animate) did do something to bring the action about. For example, there is a much stronger implication of misbehaviour in "He got arrested" than in "He was arrested".

Bingley
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Bingley

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#115762 - 11/14/03 07:41 AM Re: "have got"?
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
To continue Bingley's examples, there's also "she got married" vs "she was married." There is a grammatical term for got in this sense (besides the "get passive" that Bingley used), but damned if I can remember it. I believe it's similar to one usage of werden in German and one usage of the reflexive in Portuguese (and, I guess, Spanish).


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#115763 - 11/14/03 07:46 AM Re: "have got"?
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
well, I have no class(it's a snow day), but I have gotten used to using have and got. a lot.


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#115764 - 11/14/03 08:16 AM Re: "have got"?
Jackie Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11605
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
SNOW DAY???!!! OHHHHHH-HHHHHHHHHHHHHH...
Oh man, oh man--they have snow in Alaska, too, enough to shovel. I wanna move up north!


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#115765 - 11/14/03 08:22 AM Re: snow
AnnaStrophic Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
I'll trade places with you any time, Jackie. After all, I know how to pronounce Louisville, and I bet I could get used to saying "you-all," with or without "got" and/or "gotten."


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#115766 - 11/14/03 08:28 AM Re: snow
Jackie Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11605
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
I'll trade places with you any time, Jackie.
Somehow I don't think Faldage would care for that...


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#115767 - 11/14/03 08:32 AM Re: snow
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
well, we done got about a foot on the ground, and the 40mph winds have given us two and three foot drifts.
Marnie and I were talking about the word "drift" as being unequal to the task of describing the process. it's much too gentle. these were some pretty good breezes...

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formerly known as etaoin...

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#115768 - 11/14/03 11:26 AM creamed by cod snobbery
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Ok, ok, I made it up. The cod refers to 'fake' or 'ersatz', as in: unjustified, but taken up by all those who think Princess Diana had class.


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#115769 - 11/14/03 04:21 PM Re: "have got"?
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
there's also "she got married" vs "she was married."

My Harper's English Grammar suggests that got should not be used in place of was.

BTW, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my observation that have got sounds common to me. I know I've used it myself at times. It's just that I was taught not to. Likely I should not have said anything about it. My bad.


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#115770 - 11/14/03 05:27 PM Re: "have got"?
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Relax gift horse, all you did was start a conversation.
re "She got married" vs. "She was married" They don't mean the same thing to me. "Was" refers to a state of being whereas "got" refers to the action complete with rice throwing and mother crying. (And "She was married" refers it to lawyers)


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#115771 - 11/14/03 07:50 PM Re: "have got"?
maahey Offline
addict

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
I guess it is the context, Zed. 'She was married on a bright Sunday morning', versus, 'She got married on a bright Sunday morning'.

aside: In 'she got married', the 'got' fits Bingley's 'in possession of', rather neatly, doesn't it. She got herself a husband. {hurried exit}


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#115772 - 11/14/03 07:57 PM Re: "have got"?
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
maahey
and he got himself a treasure [hearts, flowers and violins -e]



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#115773 - 11/16/03 11:12 PM Re: "have got"?
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
As soon as I read this post, there started up in my head,
"I've got rhythm, I've got music .....".


What do y'all make of that usage?


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#115774 - 11/17/03 08:03 AM Re: "have got"?
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13783
I think it's wrong. It should be "I got rhythm, I got music…"


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#115775 - 11/17/03 04:37 PM Re: "have got"?
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
As soon as I read this post, there started up in my head,
"I've got rhythm, I've got music .....".

What do y'all make of that usage?


I think Gershwin can do whatever he wants (wanted). Actually, if you look at the entire lyrics he uses both "I got" and "I've got" in the song.


One of my favorites is:

"I've got you under my skin
I've got you deep in the heart of me

So deep in my heart
You're nearly a part of me
I've got you under my skin..."


Great romantic dance song...if memory serves. *sigh*


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#115776 - 11/17/03 06:41 PM Re: "have got"?
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Great romantic dance song...if memory serves. *sigh*
Technically it was before my time, but I do love old-fashioned social dancing. Waltzes, and fox-trots and all. We have ballroom around but it's not quite the same, less about dancing well and more about dancing "correctly".
I was born a generation too late. My father told me about the late 40's and early 50's when there was a dance every night except Sunday. Because of the LOrd's Day act you couldn't shold a dance on Sunday - but you could start one at 12:01 AM on Monday.


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#115777 - 11/17/03 07:08 PM Gotta dance!
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
I love to dance, too, Carol. I have an older male friend who was teaching me how to dance; waltz, foxtrot, Tango. Very fun. The problem is finding men who know how to dance properly. My DH is clueless. I suppose I was born too late as well (1962), though I wouldn't trade with my mother or grandmothers and have to deal with the faulty birth control of that earlier age. Yikes!


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#115778 - 11/17/03 07:16 PM Re: Gotta dance!
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Hey Twin,
Come to vancouver and I'll introduce you to the dance scene here.



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#115779 - 11/17/03 08:53 PM Re: Gotta dance!
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Hey Twin,
Come to vancouver and I'll introduce you to the dance scene here.


Thanks! Sounds like great fun to me! I may just take you up on that someday. We could be cool together.



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#115780 - 11/17/03 11:25 PM Re: "have got"?
Bobyoungbalt Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 1289
You're probably right, Faldage, but I know I've heard "Ive got" as well as "I got". Do we need to consult the original Gershwin MS?


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#115781 - 11/18/03 08:02 AM You're both right
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Here are the lyrics:

I Got Rhythm
Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald

In this fast and troubled world we sometimes lose our way
But I am never lost I feel this way because...

I got rhythm, I got music, I got my girl
Who could ask for anything more?
I've got good times, no more bad times
I've got my girl, who could ask for anything more?

Old man trouble I don't mind him
You won't find him around my door
I've got starlight, I've got sweet dreams
I've got my girl, who could ask for, who could ask for more?

Old man trouble, I don't mind him
You won't find, you're never gonna find him 'round my door
Oh, I've got rhythm, I've got music
I got my girl, who could ask for anything more?

I've got rhythm, I've got rhythm ...

Gershwin


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#115782 - 11/18/03 09:47 AM Re: "have got"?
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Relax gift horse, all you did was start a conversation.

I'm not tense, just terribly terribly alert.


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#115783 - 11/18/03 09:55 AM Re: "have got"?
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
Better to be a lert than a loof.


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#115784 - 11/22/03 09:30 AM Re: It's hoi polloi time again
grapho Offline
addict

Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 619
Loc: Carpal Tunnel Country
Shakespeare's an easy one, since he happily broke anything we consider a grammatical rule.

Here's t'other side of the coin, Shanks, in a NY Times review of "Doing our own thing" by linguist John McWhorter:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/books/review/16CALDWET.html

Extract:
At some point in the 1960's, Americans lost faith in their written language, and settled for reproducing a less demanding (but more ''real'') oral variant on the page and in public. The result, McWhorter asserts, has been a steep and steady decline in the quality of political oratory, poetry, musical theater, preaching and -- ultimately -- thinking.





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#115785 - 11/22/03 10:05 AM Re: It's hoi polloi time again
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
welcome, grapho!

interesting article, I missed that on Sunday.

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