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#115712 - 11/12/03 01:51 PM Transitive Verbs
Wordwind Offline
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There is something that bothers me about the following sentence:

Alongside the ship careened by the tropical shore, a group of pirates buried beneath a coconut tree.

Ok. Not a great sentence, but one from which I want to ask a question. In this sentence, we expect the pirates to be burying something, but there is no direct object in the sentence. Transitive verbs can take direct objects, but what do you call a verb that must take a direct object? In other words, if the verb is not followed by a direct object, the sentence sounds awkward or not quite finished because the verb lacks an object. I don't think 'buried' a very good example, but I can't think of a verb that is precisely what I want right now. If I think of a better example, I will return.

Question again: Transitive verbs can take direct objects; what do we call verbs that must take a direct object in order to be correctly and grammatically used in sentences?


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#115713 - 11/12/03 02:05 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
wwh Offline
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I know very little grammar, but to me that is not a complete sentence, no matter what meaning you assign to
"buried".


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#115714 - 11/12/03 02:13 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
maahey Offline
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Registered: 12/03/02
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I smell poetic license. If this is an attempt at poetry, here's some alternative imagery which flashed through my mind. A tropical storm caused a shipwreck and the falling coconut tree felled some pirates in its crashing descent. How many pirates can one coconut tree kill? Somewhat bizarre for more than one pirate to be standing in the path of the falling tree, but what do I know...these things have been known to happen. [sage nod]


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#115715 - 11/12/03 02:28 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
According to a quick search I performed, transitive verbs must have a direct object. It is not optional.


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#115716 - 11/12/03 02:34 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
wwh Offline
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Dear maahey: where does one apply for a poetic license to use in prose? I am a devotee of ellipsis. But ellipsis without some context can be confusing. So I'm still unsure what WW was trying to tell us.


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#115717 - 11/12/03 02:34 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
maahey Offline
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Which is why I offered up the other picture. Buried is not transitive here. If the author had written 'lay buried', it might have helped understanding, but then h/she would have missed out on being mysteriously enigmatic.


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#115718 - 11/12/03 02:35 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
wwh Offline
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So who careened the ship?


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#115719 - 11/12/03 02:37 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
maahey Offline
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..merely an expression to make a point, wwh. I don't know that this is prose or poetry; if prose shall we say, artistic license?


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#115720 - 11/12/03 02:38 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
wwh Offline
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Signals over.
Alongside the ship careened by the tropical shore, a group of pirates picnicked beneath a coconut tree.





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#115721 - 11/12/03 02:38 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
maahey Offline
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..who careened the ship...tropical storm. Imagine... imagine, dear wwh!!


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#115722 - 11/12/03 02:40 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
maahey Offline
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Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
pirates picnicked ...

very happy-go-lucky pirates, those!!

...edit:
Whoops!! ...just realised you meant turned over to clean or some such thing. We have three versions now of what happened to said ship...come in, WW.

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#115723 - 11/12/03 06:24 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Wordwind Offline
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Thanks, Shanks. That's exactly what I needed to know: transitive verbs must take direct objects.

Now I need to go take a look at my AHD and check it out--make sure that those verbs that can go either way (transitive and intransitive) are listed as such. You will have set my heart at ease. I do hope you're right.

In the case of the pirate example, I find the sentence grammatically incorrect because in my way of thinking, that use of 'buried' requires a direct object. If 'buried' so used (or interpreted) is a transitive verb in the sentence, then the sentence is ungrammatical because the verb is without a direct object. I'm wasting too many words here--sorry to be so wordy.


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#115724 - 11/12/03 06:27 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Zed Offline
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Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Dr. Bill
Great mental image of pirates at a genteel Olde English style picnic drinking tea (crossthread) with their pinkies crooked and the crusts cut off their cucumber sandwiches.


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#115725 - 11/12/03 06:29 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Wordwind Offline
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In reply to:

Alongside the ship careened by the tropical shore, a group of pirates buried beneath a coconut tree.


This is supposed to be an ungrammatical sentence, pure and simple. I'm trying to figure out why it's ungrammatical.

Here's a slight improvement brought about by a change of word order:

Alongside the careened ship by the tropical shore, a group of pirates buried beneath a coconut tree.

And here's a second improvement brought about by providing a direct object:

Alongside the careened ship by the tropical shore, a group of pirates buried treasure beneath a coconut tree.


I think without the direct object, the sentence is hopelessly ungrammatical. Can pirates bury beneath a coconut tree? Don't they have to bury something beneath that same tree?


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#115726 - 11/12/03 06:36 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Zed Offline
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Registered: 08/27/02
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Loc: British Columbia, Canada
I suppose the group of pirates could be bothe the subject and the direct object, according to the movies they spent a lot of time burying each other for one reason or another.
My first thought on reading the original sentance was the ship was careening alongside what. Does careening mean turned over for repairs? I could LIU but I have to go home and ice cupcakes for youth group.


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#115727 - 11/12/03 06:42 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Wordwind Offline
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Yes, Zed; ships were careened for repairs and for barnacle removal since barnacles slowed the ships down. Often ships would go into safe harbor where they were careened (tilted on their sides and secured with ropes to objects on land such as trees) so that repairs/cleaning could be carried out.


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#115728 - 11/12/03 06:47 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Aha so that's why the word came to mean going fast
definitely leaving now or I will be late.


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#115729 - 11/12/03 07:28 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Wordwind Offline
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No, no! Don't leave, Zed! It's 'career' you're thinking of! Faldage has written at length about the careen/career confusion!

From Onelook.com:

verb: move headlong at high speed (Example: "The cars careered down the road")


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#115730 - 11/12/03 07:48 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
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The pirates had to have ship faster than their victims.
Marine growths could reduce speed by as much as 30% for a guess. I still remember the stuff that grew on the lifelines hanging over side of troopship. I think I told a couple members story about a little adventure in Funafuti atoll. Will PM to anyone who wants to hear it.


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#115731 - 11/12/03 07:58 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Wordwind Offline
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Is Funafuti the capital of Tuvalu? If I'm right, I promise you on my word on honor, wwh, I did not liu; it was memory of a map song from a while back. If I'm incorrect, oh, well. Won't be the first or last time. At least I'll be in the approximate geographical area! Ha! Suva, Figi...et al


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#115732 - 11/12/03 08:08 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Jackie Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
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sorry to be so wordy. But but...that's what a Wordwind does! And thank you so much forships were careened for repairs and for barnacle removal since barnacles slowed the ships down. Often ships would go into safe harbor where they were careened (tilted on their sides and secured with ropes to objects on land such as trees) so that repairs/cleaning could be carried out. This meaning had not even occurred to me!

I do think buried really does have to have an object. You could say they dug beneath a tree, but they buried beneath a tree just tastes wrong. (Xara, where are you?)


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#115733 - 11/12/03 08:32 PM Re: careen/career
tsuwm Offline
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Registered: 04/03/00
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the difference may be clear in y'all's minds, but there is room for caroming aplenty:

To careen a ship is “to beach it for repairs in such a way that it will lean far over onto the curve of its bottom and side”; a generalized sense then, for ship or other vehicle, is “to tip or tilt to one side.” A figurative sense of careen is “to lurch and tip from side to side, as though out of control.” To career is “to race madly, at full speed, and possibly out of control.” This verb comes from the French noun for “a race course, especially a carriageway so used.” Both terms are Standard when applied to persons or vehicles proceeding rapidly and erratically: The wagon careened [careered] wildly down the hill. [AHD4]


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#115734 - 11/12/03 08:33 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
wwh Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 13858
I was surprised to discover etymology of "careen" is ultimately from Latin "carina" which is breastbone of a bird.
careen

SYLLABICATION: ca·reen
PRONUNCIATION: k-rn
VERB: Inflected forms: ca·reened, ca·reen·ing, ca·reens

INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To lurch or swerve while in motion. 2. To rush headlong or carelessly; career: “He careened through foreign territories on a desperate kind of blitz” (Anne Tyler). 3. Nautical a. To lean to one side, as a ship sailing in the wind. b. To turn a ship on its side for cleaning, caulking, or repairing.
TRANSITIVE VERB: Nautical 1. To cause (a ship) to lean to one side; tilt. 2a. To lean (a ship) on one side for cleaning, caulking, or repairing. b. To clean, caulk, or repair (a ship in this position).
NOUN: Nautical 1. The act or process of careening a ship. 2. The position of a careened ship.
ETYMOLOGY: From French (en) carčne, (on) the keel, from Old French carene, from Old Italian carena, from Latin carna. See kar- in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: ca·reener —NOUN

USAGE NOTE: The implication of rapidity that most often accompanies the use of careen as a verb of motion may have arisen naturally through the extension of the nautical sense of the verb to apply to the motion of automobiles, which generally careen, that is, lurch or tip over, only when driven at high speed. There is thus no reason to conclude that this use of the verb is the result of a confusion of careen with career, “to rush.” Whatever the origin of this use, however, it is by now so well established that it would be pedantic to object to it.



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#115735 - 11/12/03 08:51 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
belMarduk Offline
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Ooof, I'm still trying to understand the first sentence.

Alongside the ship careened by the tropical shore, a group of pirates buried beneath a coconut tree.

Who the hell buried the group of pirates beneath the coconut tree?

Very confusing...mumble, mumble, mumble.



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#115736 - 11/12/03 08:58 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
wwh Offline
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Posts: 13858
Dear belMarduk:"If you're not confused, you just don't understand the situation". (A Bumper Sticker long ago.)


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#115737 - 11/13/03 12:09 AM Re: Transitive Verbs
Bingley Offline
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Registered: 04/09/00
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In reply to:

According to a quick search I performed, transitive verbs must have a direct object. It is not optional.


I think this puts it backwards. We don't start with a transitive verb and say it must have an object. We start with a verb which has an object, and therefore we say it is transitive.

I looked up transitive in the Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar, and found this:

Some verb are virtually always transitive (e.g. bury, deny, distract).



Bingley

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Bingley

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#115738 - 11/13/03 07:08 AM Re: Transitive Verbs
dellfarmer Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/13/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Vermont (US)
RE:
Alongside the ship careened by the tropical shore, a group of pirates buried beneath a coconut tree.

I think it's very descriptive of a small nautical graveyard; (Comma included; was implied):

Alongside the ship careened by the tropical shore, (was) a group of pirates, buried beneath a coconut tree.

Otherwise, it's gibberish, lacks the requisite D.O.





Ron.
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Ron.

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#115739 - 11/13/03 10:46 AM Re: Transitive Verbs
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
Alongside: the ship careened by the tropical shore; a group of pirates buried beneath a coconut tree, a glass of wine and thou.

Sounds like Omar to me.

To career is “to race madly, at full speed, and possibly out of control.”

Then again, I know people who have their career well under control.


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#115740 - 11/13/03 12:10 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
maahey Offline
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Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
small nautical graveyard

Finally, someone who sees the same images I see. I was afraid I had an attack of 'mantleitis'.

red=faced edit
I wasn't mantled at all; ignored might be more like it.[sulky ]And then again, I wonder I am not ignored more often when I post with fingers in one thread and head in another. Was thnking of obtaining/be in possession of/procure .....


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#115741 - 11/13/03 05:54 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
ivy doodle Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 3
i got half way through this thread before i realised you weren't talking about transvestite verbs


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#115742 - 11/13/03 06:54 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Ivy Doodle
Transvestite verb works. After all the ship was being cleaned to reduce the drag[nudge][nudge]


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#115743 - 11/13/03 07:13 PM Re: Transitive Verbs
maahey Offline
addict

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
That was good, Zed! ^5


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