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#115132 - 11/03/03 03:57 PM Francophobia
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
I apologize if this subject has been dealt with here already. Perhaps I should lurk longer before I leap, but here I go at any rate...

Recently the flag-waving speech teacher I volunteer for in my son's school said that she wanted to "remove everything French" from her room. I stood there for a few moments, looking at her in utter disbelief, then said, "You do realize that my last name is French, right?" (My husband's family were French Huguenots from way back). She actually squinted her eyes at me in what for all the world looked like suspicion then quickly recovered.

After this I started thinking how disabled this speech teacher would truly be if she were to ban all French words from her room, since many of the words we use in English have French origins. I recalled a humorous webpage I saw some time ago and e-mailed it to her. Naturally, she did not respond. Heh! Likely most of you saw this, but in case you haven't here it is:

English Sans French
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0314/p10s02-comv.html

Now I must find a fun Xmas gift for this speech teacher....from France, of course!

Viva la différence!


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#115133 - 11/03/03 04:06 PM Re: Francophobia
sjmaxq Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 3230
Loc: Te Ika a Maui
Nice link, thanks. Here's one on a related theme:
http://www.geocities.com/wordwulf/niw_englisc.htm

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#115134 - 11/03/03 04:44 PM Re: a don't Þink so
maverick Offline
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
Pronunciation
Short: A as in 'father'
Long: Á as in 'oak'


A, wot?


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#115135 - 11/03/03 06:22 PM Re: Francophobia
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Cool link. Thank you! Someone certainly put a lot of effort into that website. I'm impressed.


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#115136 - 11/03/03 06:25 PM Re: Francophobia
sjmaxq Offline
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Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 3230
Loc: Te Ika a Maui
There are some others you might enjoy here:
http://maxqnz.com/References.html

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noho ora mai
http://maxqnzs.com/References.html

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#115137 - 11/03/03 06:34 PM Wow!
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Thank you! That should keep me busy for a while. So many words, so little time. ;-)


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#115138 - 11/03/03 08:12 PM Re: Wow!
belMarduk Offline
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Registered: 09/28/00
Posts: 2891
Removing all the French....ah bien harumph!!!

I'm a little flabergasted that she'd be allowed to instill racism in her classroom that way. Seems very close-minded.

And it might be a good idea to remind her that French is a language spoken all over the globe, in different countries, not just in that one section over in Europe just beside Spain - and notably spoken at your neighbour, to the north.

Mind you, that type of person will probably jump on you if you even bring up Québec, Canada since we were definitely against the attack on Irak.

And apparently, we bug the hell out of Floridians, because we flock down there in the hundreds of thousands every year, on vacations (read: spending money.) It's odd to see that animosity sometimes. So maybe mentioning us would not have helped your case


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#115139 - 11/03/03 08:15 PM Re: francophobia
belMarduk Offline
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Registered: 09/28/00
Posts: 2891
GF, I'm wondering if this is the right word to use.

All you wordniks out there...is there a word that means you loath something (i.e. francoloathing) instead of being frightened of it like phobia implies?


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#115140 - 11/03/03 08:21 PM Re: Francophobia
Jackie Online   content

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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11610
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
My husband's family were French Huguenots from way back So were my father's people! I've always thought that may have contributed to my love of words.


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#115141 - 11/03/03 10:04 PM Re: francophobia
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
belMarduk wrote:
...is there a word that means you loath something (i.e. francoloathing) instead of being frightened of it like phobia implies?

Very good point. I thought of that, but couldn't come up with a different word when I posted. Also I think that most hate is based on fear, so in a sense francophobia does apply.

Bigotry & ignorance work as well.

Maybe someone can think of a better word that specifically matches this situation.


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#115142 - 11/03/03 11:18 PM Re: Wow!
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
I'm a little flabergasted that she'd be allowed to instill racism in her classroom that way. Seems very close-minded.

She's definitely closed-minded, but luckily she only said this to me and not in front of any kids. Still, I find her bigotry disturbing.

Mind you, that type of person will probably jump on you if you even bring up Québec, Canada since we were definitely against the attack on Irak.

That's okay, I was against it, too.

As far as vacationers from Québec are concerned, I'd MUCH rather have them here than certain privileged people from Washington DC. [evil grin]


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#115143 - 11/04/03 06:30 AM Re: francophobia
wsieber Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1027
Loc: Switzerland
instead of being frightened of it like phobia implies? we could coin a word along the lines of "misanthropic" (miso : I hate): Misogallic



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#115144 - 11/04/03 08:28 AM Re: Wow!
AnnaStrophic Offline
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Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 6511
Loc: lower upstate New York
I gotta say, this incident reminds me of the French Academy of Letters, which, like Prohibition, cannot keep a generally-desired thing from existing.

As for -phobia, I believe it has indeed taken on the meaning of "hate," as gift horse pointed out. The inelegant "homophobia" comes to mind.


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#115145 - 11/04/03 10:00 AM Re: Wow!
of troy Offline
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Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
As for -phobia, I believe it has indeed taken on the meaning of "hate," as gift horse pointed out. The inelegant "homophobia" comes to mind.

i think phobia (fear and loathing) has come to often just mean loathing--and that it is used because it 'neatly parallels' phile.. as in anglophile..--it sort of sounds right, even if it's not 100% accurate.

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#115146 - 11/06/03 12:50 PM Re: Francophobia
TheFallibleFiend Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 1523
Loc: Virginia, USA

I love the teasing that goes on between French and Americans, and also between English and Americans. I like to hear "frog" jokes even though I don't have any idea what the connection is. (I hear all the stuff about mean Frenchies, but every single one I've met personally has been extraordinarily gracious.) I don't like the mean-spiritedness that sometimes accompanies these things, but basic teasing I appreciate. I thought changing the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries was stupid, but when a French restaurant started serving hamburgers with Idiot Cheese, I thought that was pretty funny.

It reminds me of one of the central ironies of War and Peace. The book talks about two franco-russian wars and the intervening period of peace. The main character is a Russian, Pierre. Not Peter. Not Piotr. Pierre. He starts out a boob, kinda happy-go-lucky ne'er do well and evolves into a genuine, caring person with profound intelligence and insight. Here are the Russians and war with the French, and the main character, the guy who eventually comes to manifest the highest "Russian" virtues has a French name.

Another irony occurs when there are aristocrats lounging around, pissing and moaning and they get this brilliant idea that anyone who speaks French has to put a ruble into a jar. The problem is that some of them speak only French so they have to get tutors to learn their own mother tongue. Also, the bilingual complain loudly because their are so many ideas that can be expressed beautifully in French and not at all, or very poorly in Russian.

Not exactly pertinent to the discussion. Just a random thought that occurs to me while considering this thread.

k



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#115147 - 11/06/03 03:50 PM Re: Francophobia
sjmaxq Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 3230
Loc: Te Ika a Maui
>I love the teasing that goes on between French and Americans,


All over cyberspace, I see evidence that it isn't "teasing" anymore. Staggering numbers of the mythical "average USn" now harbour the sort of irrational loathing toward anything French that was demonstrated by that teacher. In another forum, I was dfiscussing the curious vehemence of the US reaction. NZ has only ever suffered one act of terrorism, and it was committed by France, but, within a decade of it, the relationship started to thaw, and now, the two countries are remarkably amicable (friendly). Of course,given the word chosen to replace French in "fries", etc., what does that make those who are anti-French?

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#115148 - 11/06/03 09:33 PM Re: Francophobia
maverick Offline
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 4757
free dummies?


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#115149 - 11/06/03 10:19 PM Re: Francophobia
sjmaxq Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 3230
Loc: Te Ika a Maui
In reply to:

Free dummies?



Peut-être, but I was just thinking that if French fires became Freedom Fries, and French dressing became Freedom dressing, then someone who was anti-French should, by the same logic, describe themselves as anti-freedom.

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#115150 - 11/07/03 08:46 AM Re: Francophobia
dodyskin Offline
addict

Registered: 04/24/02
Posts: 475
Loc: manchester uk
the English hate the French, the Germans and the Americans
the Welsh, Cornish, Scots and Irish hate the English
the northerners hate the southerners ( applies everywhere I think)
the Londoners despise everybody, including themselves
the Mancs hate the Scousers
the Irish Protestants hate the Irish Catholics
the Israelis hate the Palestinians
the Americans hate the French, the Arabs, the South Americans , the Chinese, the Russians, and each other
The Hutus hate the Tutsis
the Sunni's hate the Shi'ites
the Serbs hate the Croats
the Czechs hate the Romany's
everybody hates the person next door


and vice versa probably

damn, i'm so depressed, i'm going back to bed


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#115151 - 11/07/03 08:47 AM Re: Francophobia
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
All over cyberspace, I see evidence that it isn't "teasing" anymore.

So do I. Right after the US invaded Iraq I heard a lot of anti-French BS here in Florida, but luckily the blatant comments seem to be subsiding, here in "Stepford" at least.

Of course,given the word chosen to replace French in "fries", etc., what does that make those who are anti-French?

lol! That's a very good point! I read somewhere (here?) that after the "Freedom Fries" fiasco that the French would have been within their rights to ask for Idiot Cheese on their hamburgers. ;-)


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#115152 - 11/07/03 09:19 AM Re: Freedom Fries
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Of course, since French fries are in no particular way French and the cuisine they are normally associated with would revolt any thinking French gourmet, we were really doing them a favor by changing the name, a point that, I believe, Dave Barry brought up.


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#115153 - 11/07/03 09:56 AM Re: Freedom Fries
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Of course, since French fries are in no particular way French and the cuisine they are normally associated with would revolt any thinking French gourmet, we were really doing them a favor by changing the name,...

Very true! Funny how we tack country names in front of foods that they have nothing to do with.

BTW, if you haven't listened to it, you might want to check out David Sedaris's comments on the French/American relations on This American Life back in March. Still very funny, IMHO.

http://207.70.82.73/pages/descriptions/03/235.html

(Click on the RealAudio icon. It's located in Act III at about 26 minutes).


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#115154 - 11/07/03 05:57 PM Re: Francophobia
davego Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Ontario, Canada
And I just read that sales of French wines in the US have recently gone up . . . ?


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#115155 - 11/07/03 08:12 PM Re: Francophobia
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
And I just read that sales of French wines in the US have recently gone up . . . ?

Could be. I hadn't read that, but it wouldn't surprise me if this senseless hate-fest has a big backlash. There seems to be a turn of the tide right now where some folks are coming to their senses. Personally I hope it lasts.


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#115156 - 11/08/03 03:19 PM Re: Francophobia
dellfarmer Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/13/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Vermont (US)
I'm not sure that the recent, increasing sales of French wine has much to do with international politics. I do know that my mother has recently fallen off the wagon again.





Ron.
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#115157 - 11/08/03 03:48 PM Re: Francophobia
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
I do know that my mother has recently fallen off the wagon again.

I'm very sorry to hear that, Ron. I've been clean & sober (well sober at least ) since 2/11/97. It isn't always easy. Sometimes it's damn hard, actually. Does she have a mentor that she (or you) can contact to help her get back on track? I know you don't know me really, but please feel free to e-mail me if you want to talk.

Dawn


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#115158 - 11/09/03 06:38 AM Re: Francophobia
dellfarmer Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/13/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Vermont (US)
Dawn:
I don't really know how to say this; I'm afraid I've just committed my 1st fuax-pas at this board. Let me start by thanking you sincerely for your caring and tender concern. It's rare these days.

The truth is: My comment about my mother was false; her 'falling of the wagon' was intended as a farciacal reason for increased wine sales. My comments certainly weren't intended to to minimize anyone's struggle with alcohol.

Actually, Mom died just under two years ago, after nearly 20 years of clean sobriety, following a lifetime of alcoholism which, no doubt, negatively impacted her ability to recover from serious illness.

I was very proud of her choice to turn her life around in its later years, as she served as an example to many others, some in my own family, of what's possible.

I have this dry sense of humor, which doen't always translate to the page. Your heartfelt response is living proof of that. I appreciate it.

PS: Congratulations on your ongoing recovery, and especially so since since your 'first day' was 2/11 --my birthday.

Best wishes


Ron.
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#115159 - 11/09/03 02:57 PM Re: Francophobia
gift horse Offline
member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Austin, TX
Hi Ron

I'm sorry to hear about your mother's death. Very sad. But glad she was able to beat the drink. I drank for a couple years after my son was Dx'ed with autism, then I came to my senses and decided to live instead. Not an easy choice.

I have this dry sense of humor, which doen't always translate to the page. Your heartfelt response is living proof of that. I appreciate it.

I think a dry sense of humor is great. On of my many character flaws is being gullible and way too literal at times. But I'm learning.

Best to You,
Dawn


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#115160 - 11/09/03 04:28 PM Re: Francophobia
maahey Offline
addict

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 555
Many welcomes gifthorse and delfarmer!

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#115161 - 11/09/03 09:41 PM Re: Francophobia
of troy Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 5400
Loc: rego park
On(e) of my many character flaws is being ....way too literal at times.

That's a character flaw? Damn! i'm not perfect!


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