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#10950 11/22/00 06:48 PM
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Hi. I'm new, so hope this goes OK. To all those who have been speculating on Latin pronunciation, a few short observations. 1. The pronunciation with hard C is the Classical pronuncation. 2. The Classical pronunciation began a modification process (similar to the self-modification process that changed Middle English to Modern English in the 15th century) about the beginning of the Common Era, or about 1 BCE / 1 AD and continued over a couple hundred years. 3. After this process, Latin had a somewhat different pronunciation in which C was soft (i.e., like ch in church) before I and E and the diphthong AE, hard (like K) before A, O, U and the other diphthongs; along with other changes, principally in the pronunciation of diphthongs -- AE (pronounced like eye in Classical Latin) became either eh (short) or like a in hay (long). Hence, the famous phrase "Caesare certior facto" was pronounced in late Latin Chesare chersior facto. 4. This is the pronunciation used all over Europe, with some minor variations in some areas, during the dark ages and through the Middle Ages right up past the Renaissance. It is still in use in the Catholic Church, and is actually spoken today in the Vatican, since this became what is known as "Church Latin". 5. Do we really know how Latin was pronounced 2000, or 1000 years ago? Yes, we do. There were innumerable scholars (and pseudoscholars) employed as rhetors, orators, and teachers of rhetoric (St. Augustine was one)and some of them wrote books. Needless to say, correct pronuncation was covered in such teaching and some has survived. The current (i.e., Late Latin) pronuncation survived on its own; the old (Classical) pronuncation was preserved in earlier teaching texts, and it was those which gave rise to the revival of the Classical pronunciation which we all learned in Latin I in high school or college.
Sorry for the length of this, but maybe it answers some questions. Also demonstrates (at least I think) that the reports of Latin's demise are as erroneous as those of Mark Twain's.


#10951 11/22/00 08:21 PM
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Welcome to you, Bob.

Thank you for that edifying post. I had wondered about
oral handing-down, myself, but am ignorant on this topic.


#10952 11/23/00 01:20 AM
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Hi Bob,

Can you point us at some translated references for the pronunciation of Classical Latin? The guys doing the analysis of graffiti half-mentioned and wholly dismissed them. Wouldn't mind having a look.



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#10953 11/24/00 02:58 AM
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There were innumerable scholars (and pseudoscholars) employed as rhetors, orators, and teachers of rhetoric (St. Augustine was one) and some of them wrote books. Needless to say, correct pronunciation was covered in such teaching and some has survived

Hi Bob.

Let me play the devil’s advocate on this one.

Let’s say some of these books have survived. How do you know that your (or whichever scholor you believe) interpretation of the pronunciation is correct? Without a pronunciation “Rosetta stone” to give you parallel inscription in modern languages, everything is subject to interpretation by the reader.

For example, if you cannot speak English and I write that the EA in beaker is pronounced like the EE in feel, reek, seek, it is utterly useless – you have nothing to compare it to. But if you speak French, and I write that the EA in beaker is pronounced like the IE in calomnie, THEN you have something to compare it to and you know that your interpretation is correct. It is a bit of a catch22 situation, in order to correctly interpret the books you speak of, the reader would have to speak Latin.

Thus the changes in pronunciation of the C as time goes by; or as fashion would have it.


#10954 11/25/00 12:55 PM
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Bel, I'm afraid you missed. Comparing the phonemes to the ones alike in known words has not always been the primary method for teaching pronounciation. I have seen a set of illustrations from XIX-century Polish ABC books for children. They were designed for people living in the German-annexed territories and covered the proper use of the whole vocal apparatus (tongue touching teeth, lips closed/open, etc.) Having been presented such an illustration our English teacher - an American - was the first foreigner I've ever heard pronounce the 'sz' sound properly (which goes pretty like English 'sh', but not exactly). Thus, I believe, it is not needed to know the language 'by your ears' to speak it right.

And speaking of differing Latin pronounciation around the world, we here definitely consider your English Latin barbaric (it's not aimed at you, Bel - you francophones manage pretty well ). Every time I hear an E-speaking actor quoting Latin (sorry, but the only example I can remember of now is Patrick Stewart in Star Trek: TNG) I have to spend some time decoding it. We never, EVER, say 'v' as 'w'!

Which probably means the illustrations from Latin ABC were not so accurate we'd like them to be...




#10955 11/25/00 11:43 PM
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Which probably means the illustrations from Latin ABC were not so accurate we'd like them to be...

I have to admit being heavily biased on this issue. I believe that the dynamic nature of languages, and the inevitability of regional accents forming, makes "knowing" how Classical Latin was pronounced almost impossible. I would however be very interested to see some of these illustrated pronunciation guides you referred to. Whether Polish Latin is any more valid than English Latin is probably a whole nuvver question. I did smile at your statement that you would never pronounce "v" as "w" - to an Anglophones ears, Central Europeans don't pronounce "w" as "w", let alone "v."
As an aside, there's an interesting passage in one of Anne Mccaffrey's Pern series in which the loremasters are confronted with recordings of their language from millennia ago - entertaining and apposite to this thread.




#10956 11/26/00 01:07 AM
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[nodding] Yep, like Max said. You can back-formate all you want but where are the tapes??? [/nodding]


#10957 11/26/00 12:21 PM
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Lukaszd, I am not saying that comparing phonemes is the only method of education. Bobyoungbalt brought up the point that there were several books that had been written that covered pronunciation to which I say that it is evident that the books available were evidently not written clearly enough to give an accurate, no-argument, answer as to the pronunciation of words.

This is clearly demonstrated when you say you find the English pronunciation of Latin words barbaric. It is also demonstrated in the fact that some letter pronunciations have changed every so often (witness the C and V). Since everyone is using the same books and no new ones have been found to clarify the situation, neither in the written or graphic format, it is left to the readers (or modern scholars) to interpret. And it is because it is left up to interpretation that we find such variances. There is no way you can prove that YOUR pronunciation is correct, but the English (or anybody else) cannot prove that THEIR pronunciation is correct either.

AnnaS is right. There are no tapes!



#10958 11/26/00 07:30 PM
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This is clearly demonstrated when you say you find the English pronunciation of Latin words barbaric.

Oops! It was not meant so seriously! The last statement was to soften the barbarity but somehow didn't manage...

I'd be the last to claim that OUR Latin is more Latin than THEIRS/YOURS. And I can agree on our ignorance of whether today's spoken Latin is correct or not. Just wanted to say: it was possible to preserve Romans' language 'as-it-was', back then, when its soon extinction was becoming clear. Our ancestors, however, didn't think of it much just as we don't about our tongues now.

I currently live, work and study in Gdansk - a city of great history, great architecture (most of it re-built, though) and many, many other virtues. It is placed in the vicinity of a Polish region called 'Kaszuby' (the Kashubes is the correct translation, I think). The Kashubians have their own language (almost unintelligible even to us, Poles), but they're just not using it in everyday life! Only a couple of years ago they suddenly realized that even their children had less and less understanding of it, and started to teach it in schools, print books, etc. Sadly, after its re-introduction I've heard an interview on the topic with an elderly Kashubian, who stated: 'Even now, I have doubts if our grandchildren will speak our tongue the way we are'. Kashubian is of course not as popular as Latin was, but let's hope they will!



#10959 11/26/00 07:41 PM
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I did smile at your statement that you would never pronounce "v" as "w" - to an Anglophones ears, Central Europeans don't pronounce "w" as "w", let alone "v."

I was referring to English v's/w's, of course. In fact, we don't have 'v' in our alphabet. The only v's you can meet being a Pole are in loanwords and foreign writtten texts. And we pronounce it just like 'w' - it resembles the 'v' of yours but with more sound put into it.



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