|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
at a church staff meeting yesterday, we had a short discussion wondering about this word, and also it's relationship to words such as orthodox and paradox.
what say the board?
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Ant's grateful for your dek - what a fascinating family of words from this root.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
damn decent of you, Fald! great stuff. wish I understood half of it, or maybe even a tenth...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear etaoin: Doxology is from a root meaning praise.
The othetr two are from a root meaning teaching or opinion.
I always like the Doxology. Only four lines, and I could head for home. Praise be.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
Many church people think that the last verse of the hymn text "Awake, my Soul, and with the Sun, written by Thomas Ken in the 17th century, IS "The Doxology." Here is that text:
Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
But there are many other doxologies, any one of which might be a legitimate candidate for being called "The Doxology."
For example, the last bit of the Lord's Prayer is its doxology:
"For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" (Matthew 6:13)
For another example, in Roman Catholic prayer, the following is considered "The Doxology":
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
... or in English (which presumably God translates back into Latin in His head) ...
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
The Greek Orthodox use the term to refer to yet another hymn altogether.
It rarely makes sense to say/write "The Doxology" without explaining which one is in mind.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
Well, thanks, Fr. Steve. I had never heard the Kent doxology, and I know that the famous Lord's Prayer doxology is an add-on of dubious canonicity, now missing from many more modern translations, including the RSV. The doxologies I am most familiar with are those that close each book of the Psalms, at Psalms 41, 72, 89, 106 and 150.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
The doxologies I am most familiar with are those that close each book of the Psalms, at Psalms 41, 72, 89, 106 and 150.
An excellent further example!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
which presumably God translates back into Latin in His head
Into Hebrew. It's into Hebrew which He translates it back in His head.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
I think the thing marked "Doxology" in the Catholic missal (not with me at the moment) is the part at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer: Through him, with him, in him,
In the unity of the Holy Spirit,
All glory and honour is yours almighty Father,
Forever and ever.Followed hot on the heels by the Great Amen (not to be confused with the Mediocre Amen). 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
the words we use were written by a Unitarian-Universalist minister, Horace Westwood, and sung to the tune of Old Hundredth: "Spirit of truth, of life, of power, we bring ourselves as gifts to thee, oh, bind our hearts this sacred hour, in faith, and hope, and charity." though our services usually last more like an hour 15, or even an hour and a half... 
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
How does the first line scan, eta? And there's yet a third set of words to Old Hundredth:
"All creatures that on earth do dwell
Sing to the Lord with cheerful voice
...
(What's the rest? Faldage has lost my hymnal so I'm typing this from memory.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
It's into Hebrew which He translates it back in His head
Not Aramaic?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
How does the first line scan, eta?poorly. Spi- rit of life..., blah, blah, ..of pow'r(one sylabble...)
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
The origin meaning praise seems to fit all of the above.
except possibly the "blah, blah, of pow'r"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
except possibly the "blah, blah, of pow'r"nah. we're UU's. that works, too. 
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Here you go, Anna; from the United Methodist Hymnal:
1. All people that on earth do dwell,
sing to the Lord with cheerful voice.
Him serve with mirth, his praise forth tell;
come ye before him and rejoice.
2. Know that the Lord is God indeed;
without our aid he did us make;
we are his folk, he doth us feed,
and for his sheep he doth us take.
3. O enter then his gates with praise;
approach with joy his courts unto;
praise, laud, and bless his name always,
for it is seemly so to do.
4. For why! the Lord our God is good;
his mercy is forever sure;
his truth at all times firmly stood,
and shall from age to age endure. Here's a link to a history of Old Hundredth, for those who are interested: http://www.webedelic.com/church/doxolf.htm
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Why do I remember a completley different set of lyrics following "All people that on Earth do dwell"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Thank you, Jackie!! And I'll look at your link in a bit. It could be that each denomination has tweaked the words a little bit (well, in the U.U.'s case, a *lot  ), because I remember "creatures" (Presbyterian upbringing) and Faldage apparently remembers different following lines (Congregational unbringing).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
creatures
I thought the "people" sounded funny.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
From a multi-denominational site:
"All people that on earth do dwell,
Sing to the Lord with cheerful voice.
Him serve with mirth, His praise forth tell;
Come ye before Him and rejoice."
From a Lutheran one:
"All People that on Earth Do Dwell"
That's not to say that some hymnals haven't changed words, of course. There IS a hymn that starts out, "All creatures of our God and king", and of course, "All creatures great and small".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Now I remember it with an aabb rhyme pattern and ending with
…ye heavenly host
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Well, that's the one Father Steve proffered:
Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Father Steve proffered
D'oh!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
remind me not to have my speakers turned up quite so loudly next time...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Don't have your speakers turned up quite so loudly next time.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
I works just as well to turn down your hearing aid.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
that doesn't help the rest of the house at 1 in the morning...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Do we gather then that they didn't enter then your gates with praise, approach with joy your courts unto; praise, laud, and bless your Name always? Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Does anyone care what it is in Italian? Ever since reading those English words yesterday I've been humming it, but my brain keeps substituting the Italian words...
Noi canteremo gloria a te (We sing glory to you)
Padre che dai la vita (Father who gives us life)
Dio d'immensa caritá (God of immense charity)
Trinita infinita (Infinite trinity)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Do we gather then that they didn'tno, on this occasion, they didn't.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
Dio d'immensa carità
I love the sound of those Italian words that end in tà - much more euphonious than their English ty equivalents, IMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
much more euphoniousboth when spoken and sung. I agree. now if I only didn't have hang-ups about the whole male-gender God thang...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
now if only I didn't have hang-ups about the whole male-gender God thang
No matter if you have hangups. She understands.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
I love the sound of those Italian words that end in tà - much more euphonious than their English ty equivalents, IMHO.
And much easier to sing !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
"He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart." [Psalm 91:4]
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. [Matthew 23:37]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
There are three doxologies currently listed in the 1990 Presbyterian hymnal, published out of Louisville, KY, hi, Jackie.
First version, #591 [I've never heard this one sung in church]
Praise God, from whom all blessings flow;
Praise Christ, all people here below;
Praise Holy Spirit evermore;
Praise Triune God, whom we adore.
Amen.
#592 [as mentioned in someone's post above]
Praise God, from whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Amen.
#593 is like #592, but there are seven Amens.
In the Presbyterian church, the "Glory be to the Father" mentioned in a post above isn't referred to as the Doxology, but as the Gloria Patri--and there are quite a few versions of it in the hymnal.
Edit:
I just checked the index and there are quite a few other doxologies I've played in services, but never realized they were doxologies:
'All Praise to Thee, My God, This Night'--really lovely;
'Come, Holy Spirit, Our Souls Inspire'
'Creator of the Stars of Night'
'Of the Father's Love Begotten'
'What Star Is This, with Beams So Bright'
...I admit that I've never studied church music formally, so it's very interesting to see that hymns we sing have been classified by the church as doxologies--beyond the one we sing faithfully every week: #592.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Cool, DubDub--thanks! I didn't know the Presbyterians published from here, but it makes sense: their headquarters are here. It was neat, when they were trying to decide where to relocate: our mayor put out an invitation, and thousands of people turned out to show that we wanted them. I believe the tape of that gathering was one of the things that convinced them to come here, after they had all but decided on somewhere else.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I'm a little out of the loop, but I think there are a couple of different groups with their own synods, etc, and one of those groups is based in Richmond?
Anyway, I still haven't found my "All creatures..." words and apparently WW's hymnal doesn't include that version. But, to quote Dave Barry, "I am not making this up."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Oh, my hymnal does include the "Old Hundredth"--in several versions. It simply isn't identified as one of the 'doxologies' in any of the several indexes in the hymnal. Your "Old Hundredth," AnnaS, is in both the 1990 Louisville edition and the 1955 Philadelphia edition I have here at home--the lyrics from both are:
All people that on earth do dwell,
Sing to the Lord with cheerful voice;
Him serve with mirth, His praise forth tell,
Come ye before Him and rejoice.
Know that the Lord is God indeed;
Without our aid He did us make;
We are His folk, He doth us feed,
And for His sheep He doth us take.
O enter then His gates with praise;
Approach with joy His courts unto;
Praise, laud, and bless his name always,
For it is seemly so to do.
For why? The Lord our God is good.
His mercy is forever sure;
His truth at all times firmly stood,
And shall from age to age endure.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Thanks, WW. Indeed, that's one of the ones Jackie put up (the first verse). But I'm looking for "creatures." I'm *sure that's how we sang it when I was a kid.... or am I totally losing it?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Nope. No creatures in the Old Hundredth I copied out above. At least in the two editions I have here at the farm. I'll check on Sunday in one other edition I have up at Concord Presbyterian. You're not thinking of "All Creatures of Our God and King" by any chance? Maybe conflating the lines from the two hymns? Or maybe conflating the lines from the 'other' Old Hundredth, the Doxology itself, #592, in which the lyrics are as cited above: 'Praise Him all creatures here below...'
I will look on Sunday, however, to see whether the Old Hundredth above in one other hymnal I've seen up at church might have the version you're thinking of.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
You're right, WW. I musta conflated two Old Hundredths. Thanks for putting my mind to rest.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
AnnaS: (Without checking my book) we sing "All creatures that on earth do dwell", but we're Catholic. I don't know if that makes a difference to you, but I find we often sing songs that (a) no one else knows, or (b) have different words than the Protestants' songs. FWIW
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Bean! OK, now we're back to square one. Thanks for letting me know.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Ain't that the purpose of doxologies?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
>Ain't that the purpose of doxologies?
All this talk of praise (or should that be prays?) reimnds me of a neat summary I just now came up with. I'm going to see if maybe I can do something with it, perhaps build it into a poem or summat:
He prayeth best, who loveth best, All things both great and small
Is it any good? D'ya reckon it's worth working on some more?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Yes! It's worth working--and it sounds very familiar. All creatures great and small--that sentiment, familiar and so true, except for maybe regarding snakes. (Just kidding--really.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
Thanks, WW, I will work on it. I hav to confess, though, it's not acytually mine. Some bony old geezer collared me on my out of church and started ranting at me. That bit's all I really remember.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
except for maybe regarding snakes
Albatross ~ buy yer Albatross!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,316
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
497
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
