Anyone else worried about incorrect use of "your" becoming part of Standard English? I see it everywhere, including on today's AWADmail:
"Of course this leads to some interesting puns in British English that don't work in US English ("I'll give you a ring unless your engaged" has two meanings in UK English but only one in US English).
David Loaring
Welcome aBoard, David.
Yes, I've noticed that tendency. I don't know whether it will be unstoppable or not. U.S. society as a whole has certainly been getting more and more casual in the last few decades, and language would seem to be a part of that trend.
I also notice people using 'there' for 'their'--and never mind 'they're'!
and what about sonic writing-- a hare's breath for a hairs breadth- since in the US we tend to measure the height, width and depth, not breadth of something.
sonic writing is something like a mondegreen... you go along thinking every one knows something till you trip over something the rabbit has exhaled!
No doubt the study of this kind of writing is called "sonics".
David Loaring
Hi David,
Yeah, this is definitely a pet hate of mine in all its forms, though the one that drives me most up the wall is the confusion of
its with
it's 
I know that the confusion is caused by "'s" more often meaning "belonging to" (genitive) than being short for "is", but I'm sorry, it brings out the grammar policeman in me. And what really gets me is that supposedly well-educated people with highly-paid jobs are among the worst culprits.
Grrrr!
Spiky Fish
P.S. People for whom English is not the first language are, of course, fully excused any kind of rant from the grammar police 
. In fact they deserve to be showered with praise if they can get these particularly tricky facets of English right .
>grrrr!
dogfish, I always tell folks that evidence this confusion to consider his --> hers --> its
and then extend that to all possessive pronouns -- of course, if they've got their and there confused, there's no hope; we just have to lock them up and throw away the keys.
>
("I'll give you a ring unless your engaged" has two meanings in UK English but only one in US English). I'm in total agreement with you, David, as I'm sure is the tired overworked proofreader (one of us) who let this slip by (I feel his pain
).
supposedly well-educated people with highly-paid jobs are among the worst culpritsYou are not wrong fishy - I growled last night when one of my kids came home with a Governors' Report from their secondary school with this very mistake liberally splattered over its fair face! Still, I guess they may be let off this fishhook, as teachers are certainly not well-paid
on the other hand (fin, whatever
) ...
As a proofreader myself, I'd probably have resorted to using [sic], since it was someone else's words. Ah well, back to the docks....
In reply to:
Yeah, this is definitely a pet hate of mine in all its forms, though the one that drives me most up the wall is the confusion of its with it's
Sorry, shona, but that particular sin, doesn't top my list. Higher up, though not necessarily on top, is loose for lose. As much as this drives me into homicidal rage, it puzzles me. To date, I can't recall having seen it outside the IT arena, where it appears to be endemic, even among people who claim that English is their first language.
In reply to:
Sorry, shona, but that particular sin, doesn't top my list.
Does anybody else ever do this? There is an apparently superfluous comma in the sentence above - a vestige of a subordinate clause that didn't make it. Since Aenigma is too idiosyncratic for general use, I tend to get so concerned with looking for typos and spelling errors that I often miss the detritus left behind from a sudden change of thought. It would give me much comfort to hear that I am not alone in this. 
It would give me much comfort to hear that I am not alone in this.
Sweet Max: you are not alone in this! I, of the convoluted sentences, often loose (gotcha!) my wildly careering thoughts out into the bewildering wilderness of comma-land.
Max-ie, I see that you are just 33 posts away from becoming an addict. Go, Max! Go, Max!
Max,
Seems it's a comman problem, a commacopia of punctuation marks.[groan*2]
I, of the convoluted sentences,My record to date is around 110 words. I was 15 at the time, whatever grade that is, and argued with my History teacher about it. He marked me down from A to A- specifically because of my masterpiece. I remonstrated that it was less than half the length of a certain sentence in
Areopagatica. Sadly, this was a fatal flaw in my argument, as he scored the killer punch by simply stating, "you're not Milton." Ah, the hubris of youth!
the hubris of youth!In my youth Milton was a foul-smelling antiseptic. In my reading of poetry later on...
>"you're not Milton."
he didn't, by any chance, preface this with "I knew Milton; Milton was a friend of mine"?
schoolIf school is to blame for many of our woes, consider the revenge of the wide-eyed pupils:
Back to school – spilling for big grinners!
http://www.takeourword.com/page5.html
I guess they may be let off this fishhook, as teachers are certainly not well-paid
Agreed, mav, but they are also responsible (for their sins) for setting the future standard, which our sprats will deliver back to us!
So I hereby withdraw any get-out clause I may have implied for people who are not well paid. And teachers get a special visit from the Grammar Police just before they've managed to make the first coffee of the day (I can't imagine a more cruel punishment)!
[evil grin]
Fish with a Chip on its shoulder
they are also responsible I don't think I can agree with that, Fisk. When you consider how few hours of teacher/pupil contact time there actually are - frequently less than two hours per week with a class of 30 or so, meaning 4 minutes in which to influence the weekly behaviour and outlook of a given child...
Then compare that with the time the parents
(could) be spending with the sprats...
Then compare that with the average weekly exposure to American dominated TV...
And add in the weekly exposure to films...
Popular music...
MTV (this comes in a class of its own!)
and even the Kellogs cornflake packet...
It's really little short of a miracle we grow up as sane and articulate as we do
(and I'm not too sure about thee!)
consider his --> hers --> its
Good point, tsuwm. Waddya know, there is a wee bit of logic in there somewhere.
Actually if we can produce helpful hints to aid the grammatically challenged its probably a better thing than locking 'em up innit?
sound of heavy boots and door splintering...
eek.
When you consider how few hours of teacher/pupil contact time there actually areHmmm, but it's not necessarily about contact time, is it? If kids see a lot of official notices/letters/whatever that contain grammatical errors, then they gradually get the impression that those errors are at best unimportant, and at worst that they are not errors at all.
And much as I agree on the importance of parental influence, I don't see how any of your examples other than the cornflake packet could cause
written grammatical errors, mav...
Hmmm (again), maybe song lyrics are on very dodgy grammatical ground, though they're too dagnabbited small for me to read these days.
But Mr Kellog was innocent, last time I checked!
When you consider how few hours of teacher/pupil contact time there actually areI don't think you can get away with this excuse, mav. Contact hours overall are likely to be in the order of twenty-two to twenty-six, I think? and every teacher is in contact with pupils for a similar amount of time. It is the cumulative effect that counts, and it is necessary that all of the teachers should be exposing the brats to the civilizing effect of good, well constructed English. If any one of them is doing otherwise, then at the least there will be a tendency to confuse the recipients if not to corrupt them (linguistically, that is). You have a share of the corporate responsibility, therefore. Which is not to absolve the other people on your list from their responsibility, of course. But I do feel that teachers, above all others, should bear a heavy load of responsibility for "the quality of the product", as educationists
(ugh!! - another nasty word) would put it, damn them.
I write the above as a fellow teacher - although, "No teacher I of children or af lesser fry / No teacher I of Teachers - no, not I / For me, the further aim, the longer reach: /
I teach men how to teach men how to teach!
(apologies for the sexist nature of the doggerel - but I couldn't work out how to turn it into bitcherel
)
a fellow teacher
I am actually currently hacking my way through a business jungle rather than attempting to civilise the nasty little oiks sprung upon an unsuspecting world by doting parents! However, I take your overall point about responsibilities - I have nothing but respect for all those attempting to spread the values of civilisation via the inhumane process of 'education'. I may even consider retraining as a teacher at some point in the near future.
and change your soubriquet from maverick to masochist?
Well, when the established pattern is to leave the profession in droves, who but a maverick might decide to join?
(und put zat vhip down)
(und put zat vhip down)Not only the whip, but the board-rubber, the well-aimed piece of chalk and the flat of your hand!
No wonder educational standards are slipping.
Yeah, right on, Rubie,
I learned a lot from that sort of thing.
lusy
Here's some help with loose and lose.....remember if something/someone is loose they are free to roam or run...the nmemonic is "The Moose is Loose" easy to figure as moose generally run around loose, being wild animals and all. So, by elimination lose means you have put something away so carefully that you cannot find it...it's lost. Perhaps passing this along will help in the battle!
Here's some help with loose and lose.....remember if something/someone is loose they are free to roam or run...the nmemonic is In point of fact, I
do need help with "loose" and "lose" - I "lose it" every time someone lets loose with it.
I "lose it" every time someone lets loose with it.Don't you mean
gets loose with it?
Do you have to get loose before you lose it or do you lose it then break loose. I"m lost. If I could figure out how to put in a weird whacked out face here, I'd loose it on you.
Don't you mean gets loose with it?Freudian slip. It reveals my own desire to let loose, in the manner of one of my favourite new idioms "to go postal."
my own desire to let loose, in the manner of one of my favourite new idioms "to go postal."Using the term loosely, I hope??
Using the term loosely, I hope??Use it or loose it!
I'm more worried about one other thing- should I go along with current threads and should I mention such "errors" to people who make them? After a recent attempt to do so resulted in being reminded that English _is_ a changing language... (I was trying to point out that the word 'their' is plural and was informed that it had drifted to being singular now.)
at least there is an 'explanation' of sorts for using their in a singular construction. the only explanation for using their and they're (and the like) interchangeably is laziness or ignorance.
Another construction, which has crept into everyday usage and appears in all sorts of documents, is the use of "their" to cover the issue of possession by an unknown third person, as in
"He or she should look to their laurels".
It's so common that I don't wince quite as painfully as I used to when I see it!
ahh. but since when did the evolution of language come out of planning rather than just because :)
..laziness or ignorance..which, once considered faults, have become pardonable, and are on the way of being regarded as endearing
>should I go along with current threads and should I mention such "errors" to people who make them?
A few of us (including some of the most guilty – moi?), agreed a while ago that we wouldn't go around correcting each other’s errors. There were two reasons (a) Too many of us type this stuff rather rapidly, either early in the morning or late at night to be able to guarantee no typos or spelling errors. The spell-checker is US-centric at best (and eccentric) at worst, so some of us can't be bothered using it. (b) We include in our number some serious pedants - it goes with the territory, if we corrected every error we may not get too far discussing anything and we'd scare off any newcomers.
If you think an error is worth mentioning then a private message is fine, if you dare. That allows the person to either correct their error or explain their logic in using the term. We've discovered that many, so called "errors" - (which may, or may not, include momentarily and orientate) are little more than regional variations. Occasionally there are a few posts that point out errors and cause some amusement.
>"The Moose is Loose" - Perhaps passing this along will help in the battle!
This might be a little tricky in Scotland. I only discovered recently that mouse rhymes with loose, not sure about louse (maybe that too). So the mnemonic could be misheard as:
The mouse is louse - quite existential when you think about it.
Occasionally there are a few posts that point out errors and cause some amusement.
I do this from time to time - but I plead not guilty (too much) on the grounds that I tend to point out those with serendipitous linguistic felicities (or doubles entendres as the case may be).
What was that quotation about a narrow (rigid?) consistency being the sign of a small mind?
Wha's fu', wha's fu'
Saw a louse chase a mouse round the riggin' o' a house
And we're a' blind drunk jolly fu'
One of the cleaner verses of an auld Scots drinking song. All the ous are pronounced oo as is the u'
In answer to I only discovered recently that mouse rhymes with loose, not sure about louse
In reply to:
I do this from time to time - but I plead not guilty (too much) on the grounds that I tend to point out those with serendipitous linguistic felicities (or doubles entendres as the case may be).
I'm with shanks here. Another board that I frequent has occasionally had threads get badly bogged down by the Grammar Police. If it ends up being funny, however, I say, go for it. Of course, given the level of this board, if it's funny it was probably intended that way.
In reply to:
A few of us (including some of the most guilty – moi?), agreed a while ago that we wouldn't go around correcting each other’s errors. There were two reasons (a) Too many of us type this stuff rather rapidly, either early in the morning or late at night to be able to guarantee no typos or spelling errors.
Here, hair! I have been profoundly grateful that my typos (many CP-induced) have generally been overlooked - a gracious courtesy. It seems the most flak I ever got over a typo was for one I quoted, not one I made! Ænigma is way too idiosyncratic to be of any real use, so I have to rely on my lousy self-discipline to force me to slow down enough to read my posts before sending, and I hate depriving you all of my wisdom for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
>serendipitous linguistic felicities (or doubles entendres as the case may be)
Yep, amusement is good.
If I may add my two-penn'uth (I'm going to anyway - my soubriquet was chosen wisely, and not by me
)
The mnemonic that I give to my students is, "If the one of the 'o's is loose, you may lose it." This does seem to work.
hmm maybe i wasn't being to clear.. I most certainly did not mean corrections on this board! I mean when I help someone edit.. when I read an article.. should I even bother trying to correct others? Or will it just be a waste of effort?
I'm astonished (was going to say surprised until I remembered the apochyphal story about Noah Webster) that no one has surmised that many of the their/there, its/it's, etc. errors may simply be typos which are not picked up by SpellCheck or whatever accursed automatic proofreader one's software uses, since they don't cite as an error something which is a real word, albeit not the one intended in the context. May the inventor and the distributors of these programs fry in the bottommost linguistic hell. Even good magazines and newspapers are coming up with errors because of homonyms which escaped the automatic spell checker.
Regarding who should have responsibility for the lack of knowledge of grammar and spelling, it's ludicrous to say that you need a lot of time. When I was in high school (mid-50's) there was a list of the 100 most frequently misspelled words in English. Every Monday and Wednesday, a list of 10 of these was handed out and every Wednesday and Friday there was a quiz on the list last assigned. The marks on this quiz figured prominently in your English mark for the quarter, semester and year. When you got thru all 100, you started over again. And this went on for 4 years. I may occasionally misspel a word, not thru a typo, usually a word ending in -able vs. -ible, but never one of the old 'top 100'. And the best part was that going over the list and doing the quizzes only took 10 minutes twice a week.
>I may occasionally misspel(!) a word
using self-reference to prove your(!!) point... very cute.
Yep, Bob - that's the way I learnt top spell as well - much the same era as you, but several thousand miles to the east!
Learning by rote has limited use - but that is definitely one of them. The other is the times-table, which is one of the cornerstones of mental arithmetic.
mental arithmetic...I always got stuck on the six-times table. But I came to the consclusion that, like cricket, it is over rated
Bobyoungbalt commented: When I was in high school (mid-50's) there was a list of the 100 most frequently misspelled words in English. Every Monday and Wednesday, a list of 10 of these was handed out and every Wednesday and Friday there was a quiz on the list last assigned.
And from the British English perspective, you were deliberately taught to misspell some of them - 'pon my honour, sir!
In reply to:
honour, etc.
I don't think I want to go there, as that horse has been, I believe sufficiently flogged. For the record, I acknowledge the High Church, or Johnsonian spelling scheme along with the Low Church, or Noah Webster, scheme. There are these caveats, however: 1. English spelling has always been a mess, since the first woad-painted scribes picked up a seashell fragment, or whatever it was. 2. Dictionaries may prescribe spellings, but they are not official, since we have no equivalent of the French Academie. (and no one would pay any attention to it if we did.) 3. Current preferred spellings have been instilled into generations of scholars by the likes of schoolmasters with their canes impressing the minds (if not the bums) of their hapless charges, as well as the old maids who were the only primary-school teachers until recently in this country (USA). Neither of these classes are descended from the Cumean Sibyl. 4. Hence, I have to conclude that each individual's English spelling is either a matter of habit or of choice, like said Morning Prayer vs. Solemn Choral Eucharist. I suppose that if I moved to the UK, I'd have to learn to spell Englilsh style, ; I believe the Brits who come here learn our spelling.
>I suppose
that if I moved to the UK, I'd have to learn to spell Englilsh style, ; I believe the Brits who come here learn our spelling.
I think Bob, that the Brits are coming around to the proper way of thinking. I noticed that Rhubarb spelled "defence" as "defense" in a recent post; I refrained from remarking on it until your note gave me a valid reason to do so.
I noticed that Rhubarb spelled "defence" as "defense" in a recent postFortunately my own spell-checker prevents me from lapsing into such abominations. As a matter of honour, I shall always favour the correct orthography, despite the extra labour involved. It is the key to my good humour, and a small gesture of my determination to support all the colours of English, be they ever so grey. Either that, or it's dementia caused by cooking in aluminium pots.
This post seemed like a good idea when I started it, but I've decided that I have no case to make
. But I liked the title, so I posted it anyway.
Sorry folks.
. I noticed that Rhubarb spelled "defence" as "defense" in a recent post; In deference to your defence of "defense", I sit on de fence on this one - it was probably one of my many typo's - I never learnt to touch-type and frequently have to post in haste.
Rhub (rube?) said:
I never learnt to touch-type and frequently have to post in hasteWeeeell ... maybe you should learn touch type post-haste? Or maybe just learn to post-haste type and leave the touch out of it altogether!
leave the touch out
or use Word as your host then paste...
leave the touch out
leave the touch out? and do what just talk?
or go post haste? oh no.. I want all the touch i can get. there are no errors, no mistakes.. just words we haven't thought of yet... dull minds might think there is only one way to spell a word... the creative mind knows there are many.. why the can be the or het or eht -- and since enigma seems to not have a much better sense of spelling than i do..
She of the word processor that botched a thousand characters said: why the can be the or het or eht ...
If you use Word with self-correct turned on, well, not it can't be. Word will unerringly fail to correct anything except the correctly. Word is The Word about words, so to speak. Well as far as Bill Gates and Micro$loth are concerned ... that's why I've turned the grammar checker, the speller checker and auto-correct off, and then use PageMaker just to be sure I'm not being Worded!
Hey, I've just noticed that I've become an enthusiast!
Happy upgrade to me, happy upgrade to me, happy upgrade dear Kiwi, happy upgrade to me?
Yeah, and why was I born at all?
Talk of spell checkers reminded me of this poem...
Owed to Spell Checker
I have a spelling checker
It came with my PC
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot sea.
Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your sure reel glad two no.
Its vary polished in it's weigh
My checker tolled me sew.
A checker is a bless sing,
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
And aides me when aye rime.
Each frays come posed up on my screen
Eye trussed too bee a joule
The checker pours o'er every word
To cheque sum spelling rule.
Be fore a veiling checkers
Hour spelling mite decline,
And if were lacks or have a laps,
We wood be maid to wine.
Butt now bee cause my spelling
Is checked with such grate flare,
Their are know faults with in my cite,
Or non eye am a wear.
Now spelling does knot phase me,
It does knot bring a tier.
My pay purrs awl due glad den
With wrapped words fare as hear.
To rite with care is quite a feet
Of witch won should be proud.
And wee mussed dew the best wee can,
Sew flaws are knot aloud.
Sow ewe can sea why aye dew prays
Such soft ware four pea seas.
And why I brake in two averse
By righting want too pleas.
Marty said: Talk of spell checkers reminded me of this poem...
Owed to Spell Checker
Yup, seen it, spell-checked it. It came out okay ...
Try running it through your Word grammar checker. You'll be amazed at the paucity of corrections it will generate.
Note: this post is not meant to imply that everyone will have a Word grammar checker. There are still some right minded people in this world.
Wants pawn term, dare worsted ladle gull how
lift wetter murder inner ladle cordage honor
itch offer lodge dock florist. Disc ladle gull
orphan worry ladle rat cluck wetter putty ladle
rat hut, end fur disc raison, pimple cauldron
ladle rat rotten hut.
Wan moaning, rat rotten hut's murder colder
inset. "Ladle rat rotten hut, heresy ladle
basking winsome burden barter end shirker
cockles. Tick disc ladle basking tudor cordage
off year groin murder hoe lifts honor udder site
other florist. Shaker lake, dun stopper laundry
wrote, end yonder no sorghum stenches dun
stopper torque wet strainers."
"Hoe cake, murder," resplendent ladle rat
rotten hut, end ticker lickle basking and
stuttered oft.
Honor wrote tudor cordage off year groin
murder, ladle rat rotten hut mitten anomalous
woof. "Wail, wail, wail," set disc wicket woof,
"evanescent ladle rat rotten hut! Wares putty
ladle gull goring wizard ladle basking?"
"Aroma goring tumor groin murder's," reprisal
ladle gull. "Grammar's seeking bet. Armor
ticking air burden barter end shirker cockles."
"Oh hoe! Heifer blessing woke," setter wicket
woof butter taught tomb shelf, "Oil tickle shirt
court tudor cordage off ear groin murder -- oil
ketchup wetter letter, end den, oh bore!"
Soda wicket woof tucker shirt court, end
whinny retched a cordage off ear groin
murder, picket inner window an sore debtor
pore oil worming worse line inner bet. Inner
flesh disc abdominal woof lipped honor betting
adder rope. Zany pool dawn a groin murder's
nut cup end gnat gun, any curdle dope inner
bet.
Inner ladle wile, ladle rat rotten hut a raft
adder cordage an ranker dough ball.
"Comb ink, sweat hard," setter wicket woof
disgracing is verse. Ladle rat rotten hut entity
bet rum end stud buyer groin murder's bet.
"Oh grammar!" crater ladle gull, "wart bag icer
gut! A nervous sausage bag ice!"
"Butter do lucky chew whiff, doll ink," whisker
disc ratchet woof whither wicket small.
"Oh grammar, water bag noisy got! A nervous
suture anomalous prognosis!"
"Butter do small your whiff," inserter woof,
ants mouse worse waddling.
"Oh grammar, water bag mousy got! A
nervous suture bag mouse!"
Daze worry on forget nut gull's lest warts. Oil
off ear sudden, trolling offer carvers an
sprinkling otter bet, disc curl an bloat Thursday
woof ceased pore ladle rat rotten hut an
garbled erupt.
Mural: Yonder no sorghum stenches shut ladle
gulls stopper torque wet strainers.
That and a buck will get you a coffee at Tim Hortens.
Faldage sent: Wants pawn term, dare worsted ladle gull how
lift wetter murder inner ladle cordage honor
itch offer lodge dock florist. Disc ladle gull
orphan worry ladle rat cluck wetter putty ladle
rat hut, end fur disc raison, pimple cauldron
ladle rat rotten hut. etc., etc.
Brilliant! I've seen attempts at this kind of thing before. You actually have to say it out loud to understand it.
I first saw it at the Exploratorium in San Francisco about the time that KFAT was given the KWSS of Death. I found it on the WEB somewhere a few years ago. The phrase Ladle Rat Rotten Hut had stuck in my brain. I even incorporated it into my version of Little Red Riding Hood by Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs.
Hey there ladle rat rotten hut,
You sure are quite the...
oi jest reece scently herd the tile be ah groin murder two.
I loved the spelling of it so I think I will now sign all my cards...
satin