Wordsmith.org
Posted By: WhitmanO'Neill Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 05:47 AM
Keep your head up, Bingley...we're pulling for you!

http://www.thejakartapost.com/headlines.asp

[edit: sorry, forgot about all our brand new members...Jakarta is experiencing some terrible flooding right now, and one of our board-friends lives there]

Posted By: Jackie Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 12:18 PM
Head up being the operative word, while swimming, eh?
Thank you, Sweet WO'N. Thinking of you, Bingley. Wish you were here.

Posted By: wow Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 01:32 PM
Bingley! Let us know - as soon as is reasonably possible - that you are OK. I send my best wishes and good thoughts -- hoping you and all friends and family are fine. Aloha

Posted By: stales Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 08:04 PM
It took me 2 days to pluck up the courage to open this thread....You see, in Australia we are a bit sensitive about people and boats. Especially when they are leaky old tubs with one trip left in them - namely the transport of people from the Middle East and SE Asia onto our doorstep.

Whilst I was pleased to find that this thrad had nothing to do with boat people, I felt the need to get something off my chest - mainly because I recently spoke to an Aussie (who now resides overseas) that intends to relinquish his citizenship because of the way we treat refugees.

The attempts to establish just who and who isn't worthy of staying in this country (from the Dept of Immigration's perspective anyway) seem to have brought us kicking and screaming into the spotlight of the world's press and no doubt to you all as well.

I think I speak on behalf of many Australians (wink e-) when I say that we DO feel sorry for these people but resent them "queue jumping" and, now that they are here, simply just don't know what to with them. I think that the fact it takes 3 years or more to process some people's applications whilst they languish in detention camps is NOT a demonstration of xenophobia, but moreso a demonstration of compassion made moribund by bureaucracy.

Anyway, in case you've been inclined to, please don't judge us by the bayings of a hungry press in the slow news season. In my experience, overseas visitors all seem to go away with the friendliness of the local folk high on their list of why this is such a great country.

almostbutnotquitebackyet stales (give me another 12 hours!!)

Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 08:21 PM
Hiya, stales-in-almost-absentia. Do you include John Howard in your list of people to excuse? He made no bones at all about what he thought of refugees, and I don't really remember the milk of human kindness flowing from his lips ... in fact he was being neither bureaucratic nor moribund.

I think there must be something freudian about the detention camp being sited at Woomera. 1. It was the site of the British space programme (sic) where they tried to get things out of Australia straight up and failed; and 2. Woomera is one aboriginal word for a spear throwing stick, presumably for projecting things out of Australia ... less than straight up.

Just commenting, like.

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 01/31/02 09:03 PM
Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 09:22 PM
Actually, I have no really strong feelings about Australia's approach to refugees one way or another. Paternalistic or not, Australia, like Zild, has finite resources and must be free to assign them as it wishes.

I was just taking issue with stales' statement about there being no xenophobia involved, which I thought was just overdoing it a [i[little bit ...

Posted By: Keiva Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 09:24 PM
I am gratified to know of two miracles:
1) Max and Kiwi can be on the same side of a political issue; [/wink] and
2) The word "chutzpah" has traveled has far as NZ!

Mirabile dictu!

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 01/31/02 09:28 PM
Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 01/31/02 09:41 PM
even if Australia apparently thinks that it is Australia's business what NZ does with its refugees.

Oh, yus, indeedy. The Strine has always felt free to tell Zild what to do. And Zild has always felt free to tell the Strine where to go ... they're just taking their time over getting there!

Posted By: stales Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/01/02 12:37 AM
"John Hanson"......a deliberate slip Max??

Let's maintain objectivity a bit longer....did your rellies make application from afar in 1947 or did they turn up unannounced on NZ soil?

carengineswarmingup stales

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 02/01/02 12:51 AM
Posted By: of troy Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/01/02 12:56 AM
such a difficult question! i work across the street from one of the US immigration offices.. the line to see an immigration officer is snaking, and about half a mile long.

in past years, they used to put up a temprory shelter in the winter months, so those waiting for hours on end had some protections from the elements. but since WTC, they don't want enclosed, hard to patrol spaces close to federal building-- so everyone waits out in the cold.

both my parents are immigrants.. both brother in law and daughter in law are both lucky enought to have green cards, but a first cousin, and his jamacan wife are both illegals. in my family, immigration is still an ongoing process!

each year, it seems for the past 20, US laws governing immigration get nastier, and more difficult. and the lastest scare has resulted in round ups!

i like to think of my country as being open to all comer, to being a haven to the downtrodden. yes, we have to take some care, and not open our borders to criminals, but lately, i think it is we who have been acting criminally..

i can't begin to comment on what is happening half way arround the world.. i still haven't sorted out the facts of my own country.. and all too often i am acting on feelings..

Posted By: consuelo Illegal aliens - 02/01/02 01:34 AM
For most of the time that I spent living in Mexico, I was an illegal alien in that country. Thank goodness no one ever decided that I needed to be stored in a detention camp for as long as it took my family to come up with the necessary bribes. It was perhaps easier for me since I was married to a native Mexican and did not hold or seek any employment in Mexico. Yes, my marriage entitled me to legal documents, for a price. We decided our childrens' needs surpassed those of the corrupt burocracy. Rules? We doan need no steenkin' rules!"

Posted By: hev Re: Boat people and detention centres - 02/01/02 03:28 AM
Hear Hear Max! (or is it Here here ... to cross threads )

It's a tough issue. I am sympathetic to the humanitarian plight of the people who come to our shores seeking refuge, and also have to consider our environmental and economical resources to be able to cope with them. True - Australia is a large country, but we are largely desert, but I suspect this is overlooked by a large portion of the extreme left who like to comment on this matter.

Glad to hear that you USns aren't judging us (thanks, of troy) ... our media here would like us to believe that the whole world condemns Australia for what is happening. And there's a good portion of Australia that condemns the situation...

And on the note of NZ's handling of the Tampa refugees? I'm really impressed... Saw a doco on A Current of Air (Affair) a little while ago. You Zilders certainly made us look bad (and we know how much you L-u-r-v-e doing that ).

Me - I guess I'm sitting on the (hopefully not barbed wire) fence... Ouch!!

Hi stales - fellow Aussie!!

Hev

"friend you haven't met yet..."
Posted By: Bingley Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/01/02 05:34 AM
I'm fine. I live in one of the higher parts of Jakarta, but some people at work have got water in their homes up to their waists, a friend of mine was stuck in her 11th floor flat for 36 hours (safe enough but the road outside was under 4 feet of water), and getting from A to B is even more of a problem than usual. Most offices have people arriving very late because of transport difficulties(there was a story in yesterday's paper, I think it was, of one woman who set out to drive to work at 6 a.m. and gave up all hope of getting there at 12 noon and went home) or just not coming in at all because they're dealing with the effects of the floods at home (well with water lapping at your front door and no way of knowing whether it was going to rise or not would you want to leave your kids?).

The waters have receded a little bit in most places but everyone's keeping a wary eye on the heavens. Jakarta is a very low-lying place and a lot of what is now the city used to be swamps. There are two main causes of the problems: deforestation in the mountains south of Jakarta, and too many buildings where the water should naturally go, and which were originally supposed to be water catchment areas.

As for the discussion that stales's misapprehension sparked off [steps on soapbox] it's a problem that's not going to go away. Given the improvements that have taken place in transportation over the past couple of centuries, there are always going to be people who want to up sticks and go and live somewhere else and can do it legally or illegally. Some of them are no doubt genuine refugees from wars, persecution, natural disaster etc. Others just think they can have a better life (however defined) somewhere else (CK and I, for example). Unfortunately no country can apply an open door policy and so they try and pick and choose who they let in.

The movements that cause most anxiety seem to be those from poorer countries to richer ones. Although poorer countries must bear some of the blame for their current state of affairs, it's not all their fault (and anyway the people wanting to move haven't generally had much influence over their countries' policies). The richer countries of the world (and I'm speaking generally here rather than pointing the finger at any particular country) could do more to help the poorer ones -- not by continual handouts but simply by adjusting some of their policies in trade for example to make them fairer, and thus give more people the chance to earn a decent living at home.[steps off soapbox]

Bingley
Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/01/02 12:03 PM
Just ducked in for a quick look from work at lunch time, and saw Bingley's comment: Some of them are no doubt genuine refugees from wars, persecution, natural disaster etc. Others just think they can have a better life (however defined) somewhere else (CK and I, for example).

Speak for yourself, Bingley! I didn't come here seeking a better life. I just came here for a change!

Posted By: Bingley Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/01/02 12:11 PM
So for you, CK, a change must represent something better than the routine.

Bingley
Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/01/02 08:29 PM
... of socks ...

Posted By: belMarduk Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/02/02 12:04 AM
What, you never changed your socks in NZ!!! And SWMBO stayed with you all those years. Her new nickname is now SSWMBO, or SaintSWMBO.

Posted By: Angel Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/03/02 03:23 AM
Ummmmm....Bingley? Can I borrow your boat? And Cap K, can I borrow some socks?

Buffalo was hit with another bad storm. The ice storm dropped alot of large tree branches on Thursday. Followed by the warm weather Friday leading to some severe flooding. I woke to my husband yelling for me to come downstairs with sponges and buckets to help with the rising water in the basement. I watched the temperature drop from 55 to 35 in 15 minutes as the wind picked up with the front coming through at about 11:00 Friday morning. Our power went out at 11:30 as trees and electric poles started to topple everywhere. A large tree in our side yard pulled the electric wires right off the house and the wires are still lying on the lawn. Our electric came back on about 9:30 pm tonight, Saturday. We were without heat and power for 34 hours, but, it has resumed, finally! The water in the basement finally went down, and the heat is finally coming up. Makes you appreciate what you have.

Posted By: belMarduk Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/03/02 03:39 AM
Good grief Angel. How did you keep warm? Do you have a slow combustion stove?

Posted By: Angel Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/03/02 03:46 AM
Good grief Angel. How did you keep warm?

A cat, lots of blankets, and a warm husband!

Posted By: belMarduk Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/03/02 04:18 AM
and a warm husband!

Nine months after our ice storm there was a dramatic increase in the birthrate. Just saying...

Posted By: Angel Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/03/02 04:22 AM
I'm a granny....and that would definitely be an immaculate conception!

Posted By: maverick Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/03/02 11:40 AM
Glad to hear you survived the horrible conditions, Angel. er, can I borrow your boat then? - nothing as severe as your storm I suspect, but considerable gales piling up the tides together with torrential rain on already soaked land have led to widespread floods in Wales ~ including our local River Teifi rising at least 6 feet above normal levels, flooding fields, roads, and low-lying houses.

I have a pic oar two taken this morning as the waters recede, with the Teifi still flowing *over a road bridge...! (d'you want to see it Max?)

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 02/03/02 06:23 PM
Posted By: Bingley Re: Someone we know needs a boat - 02/04/02 12:39 PM
The photo on the Jakarta Post's website this evening (http://www.thejakartapost.com/headlines.asp) is just outside my office. The ground floor of the office building is on the same level as the bridge in the background. Normally there is a road under the bridge.

Official figures so far: 30 dead, 5 missing, and 380,000 homeless.

Bingley
Posted By: consuelo Pong one component of arms race - 02/04/02 09:40 PM
Scroll down from picture in The Jakarta Post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czech Republic offers Indonesia wide-range defense equipment.

[Shall we warn them how pong solves the problem of violent excess?]