further to fishonabike's question, how many people here are musicians and what do you play? thought it would be interesting to see (maybe love of music and language are connected? got no proof but i reckon it could be)

hiya dody -

I have to confess, I'm not much of a musician - but I do blow down one or other of my two didgeridoos when the spirit moves me....

Am interested in this comment of yours, though: maybe love of music and language are connected? I have discovered that writers are among the most active in other arts as well. From being in a writers' group, and in a writers' book group, and from dabbling, myself, in various other branches of the arts, I have discovered that those who are writers are, very often, also one or more of the following:

artists
photographers
dancers
actors
musicians
videographers or cinematographers
designers

and almost any other art you can think of. I don't know how much it runs the other way, from other arts into writing.

I re-read Margaret Kennedy's Lucy Carmichael recently, and in it she said something to the effect that music is the least educative of all the arts. That made a lot of sense to me: it is uplifting but doesn't necessarily make you think. It engages the emotions far more than the intellect. I can think of pieces of music I have found wonderfully compelling and enticing, beautiful or gritty or having some other serious hook that caught and held my attention; but I can't think of a single thing I've learned from music that has increased my understanding of the world and my place in it (though it sure has made the world, and my place in it, a more beautiful place to be!).

Just an observation, meant in no way to negate what music DOES give us....ahhhhh.....So I, too, am curious to see how many musicians there are on the board - bless 'em all, they have a talent I just don't possess, and wish I did. [envy-e]

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Voice count?

i should think so or i wasted ten sodding years training (6-16)

In reply to:

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voice count?

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it certainly does!! one of my main missions is the equalization of vocalists with instrumentalists. I regularly get paid as an instrumentalist(bass, percussion), but it's only been recently that my skills as a singer have been rewarded. </rant>
I teach music, including band in the past, so I play most instruments. Jazz bass(a Fender fretless) and voice are my main instruments now. I also compose and conduct.

we are all made of frequencies; each of us a unique combination of fundamental and overtones, therefore music is the original language of life.

Since you asked, I played the Euphonium in our high school symphony band and the Valve Trombone in our jazz band. On my list of "101 things I want to do before I die" is 'Take Voice Lessons'. I love to sing but those around me would prefer that I don't. Thankfully my children aren't attuned (pun intended) to my voice slaughter and rather appreciate it when I sing to them!

MG say :

Am interested in this comment of yours, though: maybe love of music and language are connected? I have discovered that writers are among the most active in other arts as well. From being in a writers' group, and in a writers' book group, and from dabbling, myself, in various other branches of the arts, I have discovered that those who are writers are, very often, also one or more of the following:

artists
photographers
dancers
actors
musicians
videographers or cinematographers
designers

and almost any other art you can think of. I don't know how much it runs the other way, from other arts into writing.



Chem say: looks like a pretty 'right-brained' group of folks to me. I can't draw a circle without help and couldn't write an interesting paragraph to save my life. Thankfully there is a place in the world for us in-jun-ears!

we are all made of frequencies; each of us a unique combination of fundamental and overtones, therefore music is the original language of life.

I love this. I also happen to believe it. At the end of the day we don't consist of much except teeny weeny bits of stuff (waves?) that whizz around (vibrate) bloody quickly. Same goes for the world, and everything reverberates and resonates (perhaps better open the window after that one ).

Anyway, for the record I play acoustic guitar, sing reasonably after a few drinks (especially like harmonies), can play piano up to Moonlight Sonata level, and once had a great time mucking around on a drum kit at a party. When I win the lottery I'm going for a soundproofed room and a drumkit. Oh, and a recording studio.

music is the least educative of all the arts

Think I see what you're getting at here, MG. And I think I agree as regards music without words. Songs, of course, can engage you completely (emotionally and intellectually, well, beyond both really) - words and music working together and making very strong medicine.

I'd say that it's not just other artists who make musicians - I've certainly met more than one composer who was also good at maths, astronomy and computer programming. And chemistry! As a side note, chemists often make good programmers for some reason .

RE: we are all made of frequencies--

yes, and most human skulls, because of the proportions, resonate at middle C -- or as some of us like to know it, 660Hz.. so if your local service is in 60HZ AC(all of US, parts of Europe, and souther part of main Japanese island (tokyo and north are 50Hz) (i don't know rest of the world)
But if you are in the 60Hz range, you can do this..

sit about 6 to 10 feet (2 to 3 meters) away from a TV screen, and hum middle C .

since 60 and 660 are related frequencies, what ends up happening is your head starts to vibrate..in a resonent frequency and since you TV is being refreshed at the same rate, the picture changes.. depending on your own heads personal frequency, how good you are at mantaining perfect middle C, and the distance, you tv pictue my "break up" or you might be begin to see the raster fresh (that is, you'll see the image being updated (actually you see ever 6th image being updated) or the image might seem to jerk, almost as if it is being reversed.. (a little alcohol, to relax you helps!) its a fun weird thing to do at a party..

Does anybody here have perfect pitch?

I sing and play piano, harpsichord (some difference in technique from piano), some African drumming, recorder, violin (but I progressed only through the fourth book in the Suzuki School (and that's sortof at the end of being a beginner), and I studied flute through the end of high. I was a rotten flutist. Piano is the most natural for me.

I play the stereo [flipping hair off shoulders-e]

I play the stereo [flipping hair off shoulders-e]

LOL



Aside: I'm going to try Helen's TV + middle C trick as soon as I get home tonight. If the kids thought I was a bit mad before, they'll be convinced now .
Nursie free, WW?

I don't. There are programs that purport to develop perfect pitch, but I don't see that there's much to gain. There are so many professional musicians who don't have perfect pitch, and some musicians who do have perfect pitch have expressed how that ability sometimes gets in the way of performance when slight changes in key are made. Also, having perfect pitch does not guarantee that one will be a good musician.

If I believed that perfect pitch would help improve my musicianship in a way to make appreciable gains, I'd probably look into one of the programs available to help develop it or, at least, to make some improvements.

Also, if I believed it could generally improve musicianship, I would use such a program in music lessons at my school. The most I've read about gains made has been in the advertising literature for such programs.

It is more important to develop knowledge of relative pitch, and everybody is capable of developing those skills.

I've always been the most a-musical (and not in an amusing way) person I know. Last fall, I started singing lessons -- what a joy -- I LOVE it! Although I was VERY pitch-ignorant at first, I've been improving considerably (just sang a solo at a student recital a few weeks ago).

My instructor has said there are 2 kinds of perfect pitch - absolute pitch (where someone can sing any particular note on demand, or can name any particular note s/he hears -- it's all about labelling), and relative pitch (more common -- once you're given a note, you can move up or down from it with ease -- I think). She said she had read studies indicating that perfect pitch is developed between the ages of 2 and 5; once that window is missed, the note-sound-label connection won't be made. And, as Wordwind pointed out, perfect pitch does not necessarily make you a better singer.

oops - just saw Wordwind's last line. Should have read more carefully - could've avoided redundancy.

Nope. My vision's so bad i can't even see the plate from that far away! I hold the record for hitting batters.

#@*#*#@ I hold the record for hitting batters.#@*#*#@

Ha! Best laugh of the evening!

Dear TEd: you are perfectly equipped to be an Umpire. Go for it.

I hold the record for hitting batters

What was that Helen said (cross-threading) about how humming a perfect middle C makes your telly go haywire? Perhaps someone should see if it has the same effect on batters.

Excellent local acoustics would be required for this to work.

The pitcher's secret weapon would then be perfect pitch with a perfect pitch on a perfect pitch.

perfect pitch with a perfect pitch on a perfect pitch.

I didn't think it was legal in baseball to pitch a pitch with pitch on it. Or is that the bat?

Songs, of course, can engage you completely

(from waaay above!) Thanks for clarifying, Fish. I think this is true, too. I guess I was illustrating for myself, in my brain, by holding up two performances side by side (in a manner of speaking): Beethoven's Fifth, frig zample, and Spamlet - whoops, HAMlet, fr'another ig zample. The former is elevating and stirring and all them things; the latter makes you think, about life, the universe, and everything.

But songs combine two arts: music and writing. Music for the tune, writing for the lyrics/message. And you're right: words and music working together and making very strong medicine. I love listening to songs by my fave poet-philosophers/songwriters - Bruce Cockburn and Paul Simon spring instantly to mind but there are many more, of course.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Here's another late entry.
In my salad days I studied voice and did concert work. Was even on Ted Mack's Amateur Hour. Also did "pop" stylings and made a fair bit of cash when it was needed.
Believe it or not (those who have heard my speaking voice) I was a coloratura!
Then I started smoking.
Now voice is shot and what comes out is definetly not a coloratura!!! I think a pleasantly acceptable contralto might emerge if I took the tome to practice again.

I love music and I think orchestral music (any type- trios to rock to Boston Symphony) is in the arts exactly to keep the emotions involved. If it wasn't there we might all slide into being scientists. Heaven forfend! ©

Hamlet and Beethoven's 5th

Both inform the intellect and the emotions. I could never place one above the other. However, I've listened to the 5th by far more times than I've read Hamlet And I've thought more about the 5th probably more than I've thought about Hamlet, including a wide range of thoughts and emotions, from tragic to comic, for both have been poked fun at!

There's mental meat in both of them. Sure, you can pull the language out of Hamlet and dicuss very easily the language, the history, the references, Shakespeare's use of facts and how he modified fact. You can discuss the poetry, the emotions conveyed, the way the play has been staged and could be staged. Endless conversation.

But you could also discuss the 5th in detail: arrangement of orchestral voices, use of meter, accent, dynamics, phrasing (what a debate!), form, chord structure, and so on. You could discuss various interpretations by different orchestras under batons of different conductors. You could discuss the performances of individual performers in those different orchestras.

We could easily construct here very long, seemingly endless lists, of what the two experiences of seeing Hamlet and hearing the 5th could provide us--and, yes, hearing Hamlet and seeing the 5th . The depth of our conversations would only be limited by our depth of knowledge about theatre and orchestral performance, to use two very broad terms that don't begin to show the many ways in which our thoughts and emotions are drawn into the two disciplines.

Unfortunately, language has the edge here. In order to talk about Beethoven's music, we use the medium of language. And Shakespeare is already comfortably resting in that medium. That's why it may appear, first thoughts turned that way, that there's more to think about. Shakespeare has already provided all those thoughts! And, why, Beethoven? We must translate what happened musically into language.

However, think about what those musicians are doing to produce the sound to finally cause emotional response in an audience, and you move into an area that can so often be highly intellectualized by musicians and certainly very thoughtfully emotionalized.

I move through an experience. My mind recalls a phrase from Hamlet. I move through another. My mind recalls a musical phrase from the 5th. There is such a pool of response from those two great works from which either my intellect or my emotional being can draw--may be informed--may find coincidence.

I could never place one work above the other for either intellectual stimulation or emotional. I find it to be absurd to try to do so. And I would suspect any serious lovers of both literature and music would find it absurd to try to do so. The more I learn about one discipline, the more I appreciate the art of those I value as the masters. Both my mind and emotions are informed, and equally informed, but in different ways. And I believe it is impossible to pluck out certain mental processes from these two disciplines and say that some are not intellectual simply because they may seem to be emotional or not directly related to language.

I've seen Hamlet performed live a few times, and a few more in films. I've studied it in depth one time. I've certainly listened to the 5th countless times, but it doesn't take as long to perform as Hamlet. Certainly the artists in both performances can be equally engaged in bringing about the effects they hope to realize in their audiences. Both types of artists exercise their minds and hearts if they are the best kinds of artists. And the best kinds of audiences, I would argue, equally engage their minds and hearts.

The 5th feeds me immediately right where I am in thought and emotion. Hamlet requires that I must concentrate. The 5th requires varying degrees of concentration from me, some greater than others depending upon how much I want to concentrate. But I could write as much about one as the other, and I could write about each intelligently, especially with some good sources by my side. Each gives me cause for celebration that human beings, so creatively gifted, could rise to such heights, could produce such artistic works of such depth, complexity and intensity that future artists could lay their hands upon them and interpret them anew.

No, I could not put one discipline above the other, even though language is so readily available to us and certainly our writing on a word board may give an immediate, if questionable, advantage to language. But not in the minds of, at least, musicians. Mozart wrote a great deal of text. Ask Mozart, if we could, how he had best exercized his mental capabilities: in his letters or in his music. I don't think there's any doubt how he would respond.

But I know how I spend my hours--I know how much I listen to music--and I know what thoughts that listening inspires. Sometimes there's great good that comes from getting away from just words into a place that informs us of mental imagery, memory, and anticipation that all spring from musical arrangement of sound.

That's a bit of my take on the subject.

Best regards,
WW

Ha! - - Music transcends poetry and prose in essence. Music is not written for musicians. Music is written for mankind. A gift from the gods. As I write I listen to Richard Strauss's opera "Elektra". The human who is a human has not yet been born who can listen to this emotive work and not be transformed by it's dramatic expression of the tragedy and grandeur of being alive. Words are tyranny. Music frees the soul to reach our destiny and the stars.

<<Words are tyranny. Music frees the soul to reach our destiny and the stars.>>

If so, the tyranny of words is its own irony. Has music freed the soul to reach those figures, or was it--the soul--born of words to heaven? Words may exalt what they are not; that is the stealth with which they exalt themselves.

...the tyranny of words is its own irony. Has music freed the soul to reach those figures, or was it--the soul--born of words to heaven? Words may exalt what they are not; that is the stealth with which they exalt themselves.

No Inselpeter, the tyranny and irony of words is that I think I understand what you just said.

Wow! (exclamation, not name!) So many singers! Best add another one to the list... To date, principally baroque chamber music, but I'm getting quite into Blues at the moment.

One thing that always amazes me amongst my non-singing friends is the lack of recognition of the voice as an instrument. Any other views on this?

Agree with WOW as well that music is there to keep the emotions involved - it doesn't matter what the music is, if you play/sing it without emotion you might as well not bother as it will convey little to your audience and there'll be no link between the performer and the audience (witness the current rash of manufactured pop bands)

<<No Inselpeter, the tyranny and irony of words is that I think I understand what you just said.>>

I would have liked have left it with "the tyranny of words is its own irony," but I thought people would get mad.

I sure wish I got as much out of music as Wordwind does! My sister says that Beethoven's 5th often brings her to tears. The only music that has ever done that to me is music with words. This is definitely not because I'm a cold, emotion-less being -- my brain just doesn't seem to hear music the way other people do. But I think my singing lessons are helping me to listen a little more discriminately.

I sure wish I got as much out of music as Wordwind does

I reckon it just depends on context, boronia. Not all classical music (for instance) appeals to or moves even the most ardent classical music fan. And Beethoven's 5th, for instance, isn't always going to be the right music for some occasions - it could even leave you cold.

But think about scenes from films - sorry, movies - that have moved you (whether to laughter or tears). Then think about the background music for those scenes, and how big a part that played in your reaction.

Then, when listening to a piece of classical music, you could try imagining the movie that would go with it.

One of my favourite classical pieces used to be The Moldau by Smetana, which is very much intended to be "visual". It tells the story of the river, from tinkling streams to a grand, wide old river rolling through the capital city, via moonlit forests (complete with dancing fairies) and dangerous rapids. Great stuff for simple minds like mine

Hey, Fish...you wrote, "One of my favourite classical pieces used to be The Moldau by Smetana..." Used to be. Hmmm. That's interesting to me. It used to be one of my favorites when I was in my early twenties. No longer. I don't listen to that one anymore, and, if it's on NPR, I tend to turn it off. Same with others, too, like "The Nutcracker." Not that I would mind going to the ballet with a couple of grandchildren to show them that first, magical joy--but, no. Certain of the warhorses don't do much for me anymore, but others have held on since first hearing. Tchaikovsky wasn't too crazy about "The Nutcracker" either, from what I've read, and wasn't happy that people associated that work so strongly with him at the sacrifice of other works he knew had been better in his judgment. Don't have any idea how Smetana judged his "Moldau." I've heard a few musicians talk about being sick and tired of playing Dvorak's "The New World Symphony," including my daughter, but I still like that one a great deal.

And Boronia: I was very lucky. When I was a small child, I heard "Moonlight Sonata," the famous second movement, in some television broadcast of an old movie. I heard probably eight bars of that music--raised in a home of Blue Grass music and Big Bands--and I knew in that sonata I'd found myself. Instant recognition of who I was--and I was very, very young. Not that I don't appreciate other kinds of music, but they're more like meeting different kinds of people who are charming for different reasons. In classical music (term broadly applied here), I'm connected directly to whatever touches me most deeply. And it's pretty great getting to hear people talk about whatever touches them most deeply in music, no matter what the style is. It's the enthusiasm people show for music that I love.

One thing's for sure: A lot of these classical works I love hold up well to multiple hearings. I choose a movement of something remarkable each week for my kids at school (K-5) to listen to at the beginning of each music lesson. It usually lasts between 7 and 10 minutes--whichever movement I choose. Anyway, that's about 29 classes a week for me, and 29 hearings of whatever I've chosen, usually six times a day for that chosen movement. I've found that to be one of the biggest perks of my profession--the excuse to listen to orchestral or chamber music repeatedly and to become very intimate with it by the end of the week. The new things I hear in these multiple hearings really do make my introductory comments to the kids at week's end a bit richer than the ones I'd made at week's beginning. And what a gift to hear the commentary of small children upon hearing these works for the first time! I had one small child last year named John. His were ears listening always for timpani. If there was a timpani section at all in anything we listened to, his whole face would lighten up, he'd catch my eye, smile, and point to the speakers. I knew he'd just heard the timpani, and for some probably deep spiritual reason, they always spoke to him. I told his parents they might consider gving him drumming lessons.

Beat regards,
WW

Bill:

Then I woul dbe following in the footsteps of my late father, Four-Eyes Remington. He spent 37 years as a major league umpire, beloved by no one, reviled by all. Casey Stengel kicked dirt on his shoes, Roger Maris disparaged his lineage, and hundreds of thousands of fans booed his calls.

But he loved it. "There are balls and there are strikes, but there ain't NOTHIN' till I say if they are balls or strikes." Power, absolute power, was his aphrodisiac. I was born nine months to the day after the famous 1946 World Series.

Anyway, one day Pop lost his glasses after the last game of a series at Yankee Stadium. Without them he was stone blind, and he began to wander around the stadium searching for his glasses. Alas, he fell over a railing and died instantly when he hit the roof of the visiting team dugout. I have just finished his biography, The Decline and Fall of the Roaming Umpire.

TEd

I play the double bass. I've found that we bass players all despise the rest of the orchestra. We have good reason, too. Their instruments are inferior.

Dear jtd: just to tease you a bit, "inferior" means "lower". Not many instruments are lower
than the double bass.

I play the double bass. I've found that we bass players all despise the rest of the orchestra. We have good reason, too. Their instruments are inferior.

Ha! Never realized the deep, dark passion of bassists! Thanks for this insight.

By the way, who is the best bassist in the world? The one who says he can make his bass sound like any instrument in the world?

Thanks for his name. I would really like to buy some of his recordings this summer, and all I can remember about him is what he said he could do with his bass. Fascinating. And I hope it's true!

Bass regards,
WW

Edgar Meyer?

Dear etaoin: Because of my deafness, which also makes all music sound out ot tune,
I gave up listening to music quite a few years ago. But I used to love all kinds of
string music, especially cellists. So I had never heard of Edgar Meyer, but his URL
makes it clear he is one of the very best:http://www.sonyclassical.com/artists/meyer/adbio.html

By the way, who is the best bassist in the world?

Jack Bruce...?

You guys are one big collective tease! First ya talk about the educational *value of music, then it's about perfect pitch (BTW - I've refrained from YARTing consuelo and ofTroy cause all the newbies around 'ere), then yous drive a steak through words and music, you ponder personal emotional relationships, and then (good to see you jimthedog) start pontificating the Bass Player. What's next? A discussion on the relative value of the music of Allan Holdsworth?

Meanwhile, after 16 innings of play, the Cubs won 5-4 after a deep fly was hit, the outfielder momentarilly caught the ball, but subsequently ran full stride into the Ivy covered brick wall and dropped the ball.

It looked and sounded good and bad at the same time!

Hey, i have done a lot of riske things and even some kinky things.. but - I've refrained from YARTing consuelo and ofTroy --Yarting? in a three some? in public? Musick, you keep your string picking, ivory tickling, hands off me!

What's next? A discussion on the relative value of the music of Allan Holdsworth?

I dunno...do his relatives value his music?

I have always been told that my sense of perfect pitch is "relative", in that I can recognize any note that is played (without being given a base point of reference), as opposed to "absolute", which I thought pertained to knowing the difference between, say, A440 and A442.

I've always been surprised by the fact that my perfect pitch comes much more naturally when I'm listening to an instrument that I can play. I have trouble with, for example, violin (which I can't play worth a darn). My perfect pitch seems to be a bit of a two-step process; first my fingers mentally fall into the keying of the note, and then I read my figurative fingers. Am I alone in this?

Early on in the US involvement in World War II some bright young radio-telegrapher noticed that the opening of the 5th (Da da da daaah) mimics the dot-dot-dot-dash in Morse code for the letter V.
The music instantly shot to the Top of the Charts for one and all because of the association with the slogan "V for Victory."
MAny a person age 65 or older - who knows nothing whatsoever about classical music will recognize Beethoven's Fifth Symphony because of the association

(A person now in 60s would have been old enough in 1941 - when war started for USA - to remember the many playings of the Fifth Symphony. I recall the Fifth played on every radio station many times on both VE Day and VJ DAy. )

I read somewhere that they played the 5th on BBC before announcing that Churchill had died.

A person now in 60s would have been old enough in 1941 - when war started for USA - to remember the many playings of the Fifth Symphony

Ah, that explains the outstanding popularity of the 5th, Wise One, I mean in terms of general popularity. It is such an instantly recognizable beginning to everyone, although go a little bit further into the piece and the recognition will be significantly more rare, I think

In reply to:

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Ah, that explains the outstanding popularity of the 5th, Wise One, I mean in terms of general popularity. It is such an instantly recognizable beginning to everyone, although go a little bit further into the piece and the recognition will be significantly more rare, I think

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A humorist once wrote that Beethoven should have admitted his mistake and deleted the movements following the first, since everybody knows it stops there.

a little bit further into the piece and the recognition will be significantly more rare, I think

Not for us Oldsters, Fishona, we listened to all of it, thinking of our men overseas, wondering if, and when we would see them again. Remembering the good times and hoping for a future.
Ah, wistfully staring into space.....

going waaaay back.... The 5th feeds me immediately right where I am in thought and emotion. Hamlet requires that I must concentrate. The 5th requires varying degrees of concentration from me...

WW, I think (sorry to drag things back to this debate!) that that is primarily what Margaret Kennedy meant, when she said, in Lucy Carmichael, that music is the least educative of the arts. She might also have said (but she didn't) that it is the most emotive.

Bollocks. I may never be able to adequately convey what I understood Kennedy to be saying, when she wrote that. All I know is, it made sense to me. If you take a bunch of people who are equally unfamiliar with all the arts, and shove 'em together in a room and have them sit through both the 5th and good ol' Spamlet, I think they would get more food for thought from Spamlet (the educative element) - though they might well be more moved by the 5th (the emotive element).

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

"All I know is, it made sense to me. If you take a bunch of people who are equally unfamiliar with all the arts, and shove 'em together in a room and have them sit through both the 5th and good ol' Spamlet, I think they would get more food for thought from Spamlet (the educative element)

And I disagree with you, MG, more than you can imagine. [Hey! We're friends here and we can agree to disagree!]

But this time I won't write another of those too-long reflections that few probably read here and Musick would only tear it to pieces, anyway--Hi, Musick!

But I will go on record saying that I strongly disagree with your point of view! You, MG, might have more food for thought about Hamlet. However, you might be surprised at the number in that same room who would testify to having at least an equal appetitue for the food for thought the one and only Mr. B had provided.

I think something that is a bit awkward here is I don't like these kinds of seeming contests and measures of worth. What's gotten me all along in this whole discussion is the casual put-down Kennedy made of music. And I know she is entirely incorrect in this view in the part of the novel you refer to here--and thanks for telling us about it! Her view really hit a nerve. Seems very much out-of-touch with the world of music and music lovers. Uh, oh....I'm started to get long-winded again. Let me escape now.

Beethoven regards, [and that's with a hug to you, MG!]
WW

seeming contests and measures of worth. What's gotten me all along in this whole discussion is the casual put-down Kennedy made of music

Yes, I have to agree that's the way it sounds WW, though I don't know the full context (which is always dodgy). But certainly going by words, "educative" implies "able to educate" - and music, as an aspect of life, (hopefully) educates us both emotionally and intellectually. We can learn to feel, and we can learn how to deal with feelings.

At the end of the day, though, this is yet another of those meaningless distinctions, like "head/heart", "mind/body", "nature/nurture", "matter/spirit" etc. We all know that the world doesn't really fall into two neat halves, and we all know that these so-called oppositions are really just extremes on the same continuum. But this is an area where words play tricks on us, emphasising separation rather than connectedness.

>>a little bit further into the piece and the recognition will be significantly more rare, I think

Not for us Oldsters, Fishona

Accepted, Wise One - I did mean in terms of the general public, including the ever-increasing () number of youngsters.

I agree completely with you, Fish, if not with Ms. Kennedy. I don't know the full context either since I've never read the work, but hope to find it in the state library next week. MG told me it's out of print. But I'm really curious about Kennedy's context. I'll report back in a few weeks. If she's anything like she was in this one example, watch out. Don't be around me while I read her. I may be spitting nails--in time to the first movement of the 5th.

If anybody here needs a good dose of the idea we call "victory," listen to the last movement.

Beethoven regards,
WW

I don't know the full context either since I've never read
the work, but hope to find it in the state library next week. MG told me it's out of print.

I just checked the library database. It was first published by MacMillan in 1951 and the last print was in 1972. The database prefix denotes that the book is irreplaceable from source (out of print) so ye cannae get it from the shops.

Madama Kennedy was writing about one of her characters when she penned that throwaway line that has my darling friend (I loves ya, ya know I does! ) WW up in arms....Dubdub, I suspect you will enjoy the book in its entirety, despite disagreeing with that sentiment. Kennedy was referring to an immature character who is very self-absorbed. However, she has other characters who are more involved in other arts who are also self-absorbed - but in different ways. And she has much praise for music in other contexts within the novel. Think the point she was trying to make was that though Rickie loved music and could make wonderful music himself, he wasn't terribly quick to pick up on "real-world" things.

So now I know you are going to argue that that could be character-specific, not music-general, and I would agree with you....!

And you're right, there's not much point to arguing this anyway. As Oscar said (it was Oscar, wasn't it, and not Lear or Coward or some other clever epigrammaticist?!), "Comparisons are odious." So I'se sorry I brought it up! but 'twas an interesting debate for a little while there (I read every word, WW!), yes?

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Modestgoddess, I'm argumentative on certain topics. I've enjoyed writing so many paragraphs here that not too many would be interested in reading anyhow. But it's kind of fun to have an imaginary audience of--ha!--over 3,000 readers! And, besides, sometimes you really don't understand what you believe and can move on to new thoughts till you've put those beliefs into words or actions.

I am going to read Ms. Kennedy's book if the state library has it. Promise. And after that, I'm going to hear a symphony orchestra play, and write a volume or two about what I learned! Just kidding! But if you want to go hear the fifth with me sometime, let's find an orchestra between your place and mine. I'll talk your MG (most gracious) ear off about it afterwards!

Beethoven regards,
WW

WW, you got yo'sef a deal! I'll buy the popcorn.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Fidel Castro: Aw forget it Dubba, let's find an orchestra between your place and mine. I'll talk your MG (most gracious) ear off about it afterwards!

President Bush: Well ok, you silly communist goose , you got yo'sef a deal! I'll buy the popcorn.

Well, Milo, if'n yer gonna do dat, you shoulda changed the title!

---------

"...But this is an area where words play tricks on us, emphasising separation rather than connectedness."

I like it! I seems like the definition of definition.

...and Musick would only tear it to pieces, anyway--Hi, Musick!

Hi, WW. Now you know what I meant by "tighten your skin". Aw, go-on ahead and ruffle some feathers...