vor �e tonge hit chaunge�

I was looking at Robert of Gloucester's Metrical Chronicle (ca.1330 CE), especially the earlier bits he cribbed from Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanni�. I was struck by this passage especially:

Quote:

�o bi�oȝte vortiger � mest of alle �inge �
Hou he miȝte do quoyntelucost � �at he him sulf were king �
Vor �at was alwei is �oȝt � & �eruore the monek he nom �
To be king vor he was nyce � & ne cou�e no wisdom �

Then Vortigern understood; above all things;
How he might carry out most cunningly; that he himself were king;
For that was always his thought; and therefore he took the monk;
to be king because he was foolish; and he knew not no wisdom;

Here we have nice meaning 'foolish' and a full-blown double negative.

� that the character meaning th? Funny. : -)

Love the thread title, Nuncle, and I'm sure Faldage will love the last line as much as I do. Thanks for posting it.

niþ

But can we count it as a full-blown double negative when 'no' in the modernized version clearly equals 'any'?

Originally Posted By: Jackie

But can we count it as a full-blown double negative when 'no' in the modernized version clearly equals 'any'?

Sure we can. We replaced the no with the any because we got bullied into thinking negative harmony was wrong.

negative harmony I love it!

Edit: that means the notes below the tonic, right?

I couldn't find any non-musical hits when I googled it but I can't believe I coined the term. Maybe Nuncle Z could help me out here.

I couldn't find any non-musical hits when I googled it but I can't believe I coined the term.

No help here. I knew what you meant by harmony. When I googled with the following, "negative harmony" -music -tone, this thread comes up midway down the first page of hits.

Well, I just guess I'll have to define it my own self:

Negative harmony is the requirement that if a verb is negated in a sentence then either the subject or the object or both must also be negated, Examples

English - I ain't got no money

Spanish - No hay nada 'There isn't nothing.'

Russian - Я не знаю. Я ничего никогда не знаю. 'I don't know. I don't never know nothing.'

Originally Posted By: Faldage

Well, I just guess I'll have to define it my own self:

Negative harmony is the requirement that if a verb is negated in a sentence then either the subject or the object or both must also be negated, Examples

English - I ain't got no money

Spanish - No hay nada 'There isn't nothing.'

Russian - Я не знаю. Я ничего никогда не знаю. 'I don't know. I don't never know nothing.'

So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example?

I can't believe I coined the term Well, apparently you did--congratulations!

And you are perfectly entitled to define it yourself, which you did exactly in accordance with what I thought you meant!

So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example?

I'll let Faldo answer the question as it's his term, but I must address the French constructions: pas < Latin passus 'step'; just like rien < res 'thing'. Basically a positive word becoming a negative one. Good is bad, up is down, etc.

Originally Posted By: zmjezhd

So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example?

I'll let Faldo answer the question as it's his term, but I must address the French constructions: pas < Latin passus 'step'; just like rien < res 'thing'. Basically a positive word becoming a negative one. Good is bad, up is down, etc.

sorry i am a little confused. i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no? I think i am getting beyond my ability to understand or express here.

i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no?

Yes, today they are a double negative. I was just rhapsodizing on their etymologies. Pas started out as a non-negative.

Originally Posted By: zmjezhd

i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no?

Yes, today they are a double negative. I was just rhapsodizing on their etymologies. Pas started out as a non-negative.

Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.

Originally Posted By: zmjezhd

Pas started out as a non-negative.

Which, of course, is all the peevologist proponents of the etymological fallacy need to claim it's not an example of negative harmony.

Speaking of negative harmony. surely there must be a Proper Linguistic Term for it. It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages.

Proper Linguistic Term

Sure, how about negative concord or multiple negation? See Wikipedia entry for double negative or The cameleontic nature of French ni: Negative coordination in a negative concord language).

It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages.

A) I thought I'd posted this a week ago, but:

D'oh! Negative concord! Of course!

and

2)

Originally Posted By: Jackie

It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages.

That's not quite the same thing. Yeah, there's two negatives in there but they're not supporting each other. It's like the difference between

a) I couldn't fail to disagree with you less.

and

ii) I don't like to have to kill nobody without they ain't no chance of no gold in it for me.

Good gravy--I actually understood ii!

Originally Posted By: Jackie

Good gravy--I actually understood ii!

Yup. The ungrammatical multiple negative is clearer than the grammatical multiple negative. Take that, doomsayers of linguistic decline!