Darn you, maverick! You pinched me in the birthdays thread, where I couldn't chase you down and get you back, so NOW look what you've made me do--come over here and start a whole new thread![mock-glower e]
Here's what started the chase:
Have you seen M-W’s Word of the Day, Jackie? *EG*AUGH! Maverick! You come here this instant! BOY do I have something for you!!! Oooh!
I did find vindication, there, though:
Some critics dislike "orientate" because it contains an unnecessary extra syllable, but you can decide for yourself how important that consideration is for you. Personal choice is the primary deciding factor, although "orientate" tends to be used more often in British English than it is in American. So, pppbbbfffttt, to you. [stalks righteously away muttering, "Gol-danged Brit-speakers anyway..."]
Mav, would you agree that Jackie's "pppbbbfffttt" is the US (and unasterisked) equivalent of what you British-Isler ayleurs would refer to as a raspberry tart?
[ blue ]PS: To Keiva (and I never mentioned even once that grand piano-mouthed mammal!)[/ blue ]
But Dub-Dub, ya' did-did!
I was under the impression reiterate was used to mean "say again" while iterate was confined to more technical and mathematical contexts.
Bingley
nearly all current dictionaries equate the two, even when giving shadings for synonyms of 'repeat'; the math usage is the newest sense of iterate, not showing up in the citations until 1953.
Oh well. Perhaps it's a useful differentiation to be encouraged. [hopeful look]
Bingley
the math usage is the newest sense of iterate, not showing up in the citations until 1953.
tsuwm, that fascinating! In all honesty (and not as a stretch to lead to my next comment) I'd always assumed the converse.
(apparently my prior practice had bee ill-iterate.)
It should also be noted that the prefix re- has an intensifying function as well as a repetitive one.
Not to mention that in Latin, verbs with prefixes have often not fallen far from their respective trees.
I agree, Wordwind. Only the ill-iterate would use "reiterate".
redazzle
A quick perusal of on line dictionaries indicates that reiterate has more of a repetitive connotation than does iterate. That is, reiterate has more of a feeling of "enough already" not present in the less overbearing iterate.
But perhaps only the ill-iterate would retain sufficient feeling for the nuances of spoken language to detect that.
Dazzle is of course from an English (or possibly Norse, but it entered the English language early enough) stem and thus takes the English intensifier be-.
I trust I may be allowed sufficient time to browse a brick and mortar dictionary to find a re- verb that will satisfy your requirements, Dub Dub'?
Dub-dub, would you accept an example using a different prefix? Such as flammable/inflammable?
I thought of reemphasize, but that just means to emphasize again or anew rather than emphasize more.
I can't for the moment think of a usage of re- as an intensifier; the other common meaning of the prefix re- is back, as in recall or react....
oh, wait... how about refine?
how about refine?
Hmm, this requires some thought. I'll have to redouble my efforts.
Hmm, this requires some thought. I'll have to redouble my efforts.
Fine by me.
>I don't believe fine/refine, call/recall, and
act/react work in the same way....
well, I didn't lump them together. in fact, the only one I suggested might fit the intensifier bill was refine, thusly:
fine: to make fine or pure; to purify from extraneous or impure matter
refine: to free from imperfections or defects; to bring to a more perfect state
I was fined and refined one day when I forgot I'd parked my car in the alley instead of the parking lot per usual. Dang Autopark Nazis cost me $16.00 instead of just $8.00.
This brings to mind "redundant", which is in a class with "disgruntled" -- I don't recall ever seeing a dundant expression.
byb, you are so couth and kempt.
This brings to mind "redundant", which is in a class with "disgruntled" -- I don't recall ever seeing a dundant expression.
wrong class, bob. while there certainly is a 'gruntle' (to utter a little or low grunt), there is no dundant because the L. root redundare was formed from re(d)- + undare, to surge (the re- means back).
[btw, disgruntle uses dis- as an intensifier]
there is no dundant because the L. root redundare was formed from re(d)- + undare, to surge (the re- means back).
so (amending byb's point), is there an "undant"?
>Is the use archaic?
hmm... I suppose, a bit.
1871 Browning "Fined and thrice refined I' the crucible of life."
[btw, disgruntle uses dis- as an intensifier]
Thus, dis- serves to intensify in some cases, and to negative in others -- diametrically opposite functions.
I find that very intriguing. tsuwm, any notion how that evolved?
With verbs having already a sense of division, solution, separation, or undoing, the addition of dis- was naturally intensive, ‘away, out and out, utterly, exceedingly’, as in disperire to perish utterly, dispudere to be utterly ashamed, distædere to be utterly wearied or disgusted; hence it became an intensive in some other verbs, as dilaudare to praise exceedingly, discupere to desire vehemently, dissuaviri to kiss ardently. In the same way, English has several verbs in which dis- adds intensity to words having already a sense of undoing, as in disalter, disaltern, disannul.
and so, words with an already negative sense, as disgruntle, disabuse [not in the usual sense, but Scot., to mar, spoil, misuse.]
{and that makes disabuse one of those enantiodromic words}
>Is the use archaic?
hmm... I suppose, a bit
I would say no. Fine gold, for example, is understood as (re)fined metal. Also, fine(s) as a description of particulate material is quite common in the building trade about aggregates - if you specified "crusher run including fines" it would be all-in ballast from sand upwards, contrasting to say a grade of crushed rock like "½-inch to 3-inch".
...but we're having to do, specifically, with the verb fine in this sense, mav. the Browning quote is the *latest citation in OED2. refine seems to have been deemed the... more perfect word.
....between verbs and nouns, and all! huh!
oh, there's a list someone could start: verb forms that have gone obsolete while the noun hasn't. and verse vice'.
verb forms that have gone obsolete while the noun hasn't. and verse vice'.
Then we could revive the disused portion and get accused of verbing nouns or nouning verbs.
>Then we could revive the disused portion and get accused of verbing nouns or nouning verbs.
oh, that happens to me all the time!
When I was just a kid, I used to go into Alexandria, VA on the bus to wander around town in the summertime. One of my favorite haunts was the courtroom of Nicholas J. Colosanto, who was probably 5 feet tall, swarthy, and a real riot on the bench. One day a regular "customer" got his usual $15 fine for drunk and disorderly, but apparently his hangover got the better of him. He ran from the courtroom, screaming, "I'm not paying the fine, you spaghetti-eating SOB." The bailiffs brought him back and Nick gave him another $25 fine for contempt of court, and admonished him, "Had you been chaste and refined, you would not have been chased and refined." I was 13 or so, and I was the only one in the courtroom who laughed. Which resulted in an invitation from the judge for iced tea at the local lawyer hangout around the corner after court was over.
Sadly, some years later, Nick was assassinated in the front door of his house when he answered a knock at the door. The murder was never solved.
geez teD, you need to warn us...
...when you go back to the original subject.
> Nicholas [J.] Colosanto
I haven't IMDBed it, but as I recall that was also the name of the guy who played "Coach" on Cheers (although the J is questionable). Any relation, do you know?
I spent some time reading the dictionary over the weekend and came up with the following list of words in which re- is used as an intensifier. If you would quibble you have ample opportunity with this list as most of them do not have corresponding re-less words.
rebel
rebuke
receive
recite
reconnoiter
record
recruit
recuse
redact*
refer
refine
refrigerate
refuge
refuse
regale
regard
regret
reinforce
relate
relax
relieve
rely
remain
remark
remedy
renegade/renege
repel
repine
repose
reprehend
repress
reprimand
reprove
repugn
require
research
resent
resist
resolve
retain
reveal
revere
revile
reward.
*In this case the prefix is red- but that is a Latin alternate where the d serves some phonetic function.
The first citation for iterate in the OED is from 1533, the first for reiterate from 1526.
Far be it from be to go off-topic, but.
How many of y'all actually® *read the dictionary? I look up a word, my eyes hit another word, I read that entry, I see something else, I read that, and as often as not, I forget what I was looking up. But I don't sit down and *read* a dictionary.
the day Faldage starts reading the phone book is when I'll really start to worry.....
...starts reading the phone book...
Its worse than a russian novel.. all those characters, and no plot!
as for the dictionary, i used to sit and read it*, but i don't much do that any more.. but i do sometimes go scurring about, letting one word lead me to another. and when i get a specialty dictionary.. i do tend to sit and read it.. but i never sat and read the OED.. (to heavy to hold, and the font was to small to read with it sitting in your lap)
* i loved reading the dictionary as a child.
A few days ago, a tornado came through the area, and the nearby town was without electrical power for a day. We had power at home, but the in-town daycare did not, so both boys were home ALL DAY
[sam kinison]
AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHAAAAAARRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
[/sam kinison]
With an unscheduled free day, my 8-year-old was excited to have me read a book to him. His choice was the Sesame Street Dictionary, volume 1 (A - B). We read it cover to cover.
I'm terrible when it comes to dictionaries. I'll look up a word and another word will catch my eye while I'm doing it. Before you know it, I've read all of the definitions on that page. If I'm lucky, I'll even get around the finding the word that started me off. Yep, I'm pretty wierd.
