Wordsmith.org
Posted By: Father Steve Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 01:29 AM
From the New York Times:

"If it sometimes seems that American poets are a humorless lot, lacking a certain sprezzatura, [August] Kleinzahler gives the lie to all that. He has labored in the vineyards of verse for many years, and more strikingly, he has played," writes Maureen N. McLane.

Sprezzatura is the art of making the difficult look easy.

How about that?


Posted By: Faldage Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 01:31 AM
So, what's the art of making the easy look difficult?

Posted By: Father Steve Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 01:38 AM
So, what's the art of making the easy look difficult?

Working for any governmental regulatory agency?



Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 01:53 AM
http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzmeaning.html

The meaning of sprezzatura in art and life in the High Renaissance is difficult to determine. Part of the trouble stems from the contradictions inherent in the word itself; it is paradoxical, closely related to grace, but with slightly different connotations. Castiglione's Book of the Courtier elaborated on what the word meant for social interaction. A character in the book, Count Ludovico, explains the meaning of grace, and in it he mentions sprezzatura. "It is an art which does not seem to be an art. One must avoid affectation and practice in all things a certain sprezzatura, disdain or carelessness, so as to conceal art, and make whatever is done or said appear to be without effort and almost without any thought about it....obvious effort is the antithesis of grace." The most important aspect of sprezzatura is its two-layered nature: it involves a conscious effort which is disguised by a concealing act. Things which require effort are to be performed casually. Count Ludovico seems to be saying that grace arises out of sprezzatura. Anthony Blunt interprets it this way: "It will vanish if a man takes too much pains to attain it, or if he shows any effort to attain it. Nothing but complete ease can produce it. The only effort which should be expended in attaining it is an effort to conceal the skill on which it is based; and it is from sprezzatura, or recklessness, that grace springs." In High Renaissance life, the courtiers wanted to put on a kind of performance, a subtle one, without allowing anyone to know it was self-conscious and deliberate behavior.

not sure about the source, but it's a great word.

Posted By: wwh Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 02:22 AM
In another thread I mentioned the duchy of Urbino, where
in tournaments of sword fighting, the highest praise went
to those who won with the least expenditure of energy.
In the PBS series by Arthur C. Clarke, I don't remember a name being given to it but "sprezzatura" would fit.

And I think that our slang "cool" is a crude version of it.

Posted By: Father Steve Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 02:37 AM
... not sure about the source, but it's a great word.

My mum always said that the best way to get a new word into your vocabulary was to use it. She recommended five times for a permanent synaptic lock.

Tomorrow I must teach a class to budding liturgists in the morning and write two sermons in the afternoon. I'm not sure how sprezzatura is going to relate to any of the three, but there is a very good chance that it will find its way into all of them.


Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 02:42 AM
>So, what's the art of making the easy look difficult?

In sporting terms, "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory". see also "Red Sox"

Posted By: jheem Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 02:09 PM
I hadn't seen this term before. It comes from the verb prezzare 'to price' and the suffix s- 'dis-'. The difnition my Italian dictionary gives is: "maniera volutamente e sapientemente negletta di fare, di vestire, di scrivere; opposto di ricercatezza; disinvoltura, trascuranza, scioltezza." (deliberately and skillfully ignoring how to act, dress, write; nonchalance, disregard, agility). Reminds me of that great film by Godard Le mépris from the Alberto Moravia novel Il Disprezzo (in English Ghost at Noon). I think there's more to cool than contempt, but I guess it depends which side of the chillth you're on.

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 02:18 PM
Sounds like Gene Kelly to me. Terrific word, FS.

Posted By: Jackie Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 02:57 PM
Father Steve, from what I can tell, you sprezzatura all over the place.

Posted By: wwh Re: Sprezzatura - 02/21/04 05:07 PM
I remember a bit of "sprezzatura" in the Disney production of Peter Pan, in which Captain Hook (a cartoon copy of Basil Rathbone) lights a cigarette with left hand while nonchalanontly fencing with an opponent he isn't even looking at .

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 03:25 PM
That might have been Hook's lightszatura wwh.

There are other forms:

writeszzatura
jazzzzatura
or closely related improvisazzatura
balletzzatura
rodeozzatura or closely relted barrel-racezzatura
for of troy, knittszzatura
for faldo, knitpickszzatura
for jackie, doubleentendrezzatura or not-related bardophobiazzatura
for Dame Joan Sutherland, coloraturazzatura
for Sunday afternoon couched potatoes, snoozzzatura

Any other notable zzaturas?


Posted By: Jackie Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 04:38 PM
jazzzzatura

Poetzzatura


Posted By: grapho Re: Sprezz - 02/22/04 05:51 PM
My mum always said that the best way to get a new word into your vocabulary was to use it.

A performance sublime
That's sprezzatura
The best after that
Is only bravura.

Case in point:
Secretariat in the Belmont, 1973.
Who remembers any Triple Crown winner since?

Other Sprezzaturissimo Moments?

Miracle on Ice
Nadia's perfect "10"

Simply sprezz!



Posted By: TEd Remington Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 06:18 PM
GREAT sex --Kama zzatura

Posted By: grapho Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 06:23 PM
kama sutra

Kama sutra is great sex without the sprezz.

Posted By: maahey Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 06:43 PM
The epitome of studied casualness; the absolute icon of Sprezzatura - James Bond! No!?

Am also thinking....women down the ages have always had this quality haven't they? Somehow, they always exuded a certain strength, confidence, vim; were the bulwarks of their families, managed SO many things in a day, children, homes, finances, social relationships, food, farms and still made it all look so effortless. ....distinct and definite erosion of sprezzatura methinks; at least certainly at this end; one job seems too much at times

And now...I shall await the brickbats that are certain to come

Posted By: grapho Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 07:40 PM
the bulwarks of their families

You can still find those "bulwarks" in Third World countries, but there isn't much sprezz in their existence.

P.S. What is your historical reference anyway? Vivian Leigh in "Gone with the Wind"?

Posted By: maahey Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 07:54 PM
I am *Third* World-ian by race Grapho, but that is not the reason for the lack of the 'Sprezz', I assure you

Posted By: grapho Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 08:05 PM
I am *Third* World-ian by race

Third World-ian isn't "a race", Maahey. It's a condition. A truly unfortunate condition.

Fortunately, you escaped it.

Posted By: maahey Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 08:10 PM
I humbly concede to your obviously intense knowledge of the condition, the regions so clubbed and of the unlucky existences therein

Posted By: Wordwind Re: unlucky - 02/22/04 11:48 PM
In reply to:

unlucky existences therein



Very interesting perception. Of Aristotle's sixteen constituents of happiness, good luck was one.

Posted By: of troy Re: Sprezzatura - 02/22/04 11:57 PM
i recognize my good luck (frequently) one comment that recently struck a chord with me--was that many americans get upset when their pets drink water from a toilet bowl.

over 75%of the people of world's population would be very happy to have a ready supply of water as clean as can be found in most amercian toilet bowls.(most of them are forced to drink water much more contaminated.)

everytime i open a tap (and i drink several glasses of water a day) i try to remember, what ever else might not be perfect in my life, i am extremely blessed and lucky in many, many ways.

Posted By: grapho When u sez sprezz - 02/23/04 03:23 AM
When u sez sprezz, u sez it all.

Another sprezz moment:

The birth of a child.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: When u sez sprezz - 02/23/04 03:26 AM
The birth of a child.

have you BEEN at a birth?

Posted By: grapho sprezzial moments - 02/23/04 05:03 AM
Have you BEEN at a birth?

Yup. And it was very sprezzial!

Posted By: consuelo Re: sprezzial moments - 02/23/04 10:46 AM
Sprezzatura is the art of making the difficult look easy.

Sorry, but I've never seen a woman giving birth that could make that look easy and I have been present at many births.



Posted By: grapho A performance sublime - 02/23/04 11:56 AM
Sprezzatura is the art of making the difficult look easy.

That's bravura.

Sprezzatura is making the impossible, possible ... if only for a moment, a startling, shimmering, mind-shearing, joyous, epiphany of a moment.

A performance sublime
That's "Sprezzatura"
The best after that
"Ehh, bravura".

A single sprezz moment lasts a life-time.

It could even make a life-time otherwise wasted, well-lived.

A person can even die with sprezz. In fact, it's the only way to go.






Posted By: TEd Remington have you BEEN at a birth? - 02/23/04 01:19 PM
Well, yeah. Pretty much everyone has.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: A performance sublime - 02/23/04 01:37 PM
That's bravura.
not according to the definition we've been going along with all this time.

Quick definitions bravura

noun: brilliant and showy technical skill


I'm with Connie on this one.

and TEd:

Posted By: wwh Re: A performance sublime - 02/23/04 01:50 PM
Back to the definition: "...obvious effort is the antithesis of grace...."

That would seem to make "bravura" and "sprezzatura"
mutually exclusive.

Posted By: Faldage Re: A performance sublime - 02/23/04 02:07 PM
There seem to be differing opinions on the definition of sprezzatura:

http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzmeaning.html

http://www.landini.org/sprezzatura/whatitis.html

http://www.sprez.com/sprezzatura.htm

http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=124831

All opinions are equal but we must remember that some are more equal than others.



Posted By: wwh Re: A performance sublime - 02/23/04 02:19 PM
Bravura seems to require effort, which seems to me to be
antithetical to sprezzatura.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary
bravura
Definition: \Bra*vu"ra\, n. [It., (properly) bravery, spirit, from
bravo. See {Brave}.] (Mus.)
A florid, brilliant style of music, written for effect, to
show the range and flexibility of a singer's voice, or the
technical force and skill of a performer; virtuoso music.

{Aria di bravura}[It.], a florid air demanding brilliant
execution.





Posted By: Wordwind Re: A performance sublime - 02/23/04 02:30 PM
I agree completely with wwh's point about the difference between spretz and bra.

Now, will someone comment on the root 'colora' in 'coloratura'?

Posted By: jheem Re: -turus - 02/23/04 02:37 PM
Sure, it's from the Latin coloratura 'coloring' from the past participle coloratus from the verb coloro 'to color'. The Latin future infinitive, e.g., amaturus 'about to love', is cool. Best known from the phrase: "Nos morituri te salutamus Cæsar." (We who are about to die salute thee, O Caesar.)

Posted By: tsuwm Re: equal opinions [not] - 02/23/04 03:40 PM
until Emanuella delivers the It. verdict, here's OED2 chiming in:
[It.]

Ease of manner, studied carelessness; the appearance of acting or being done without effort; spec. of literary style or performance.

1957 N. FRYE Anat. Criticism 93 The quality that the Italian critics called sprezzatura. 1960 E. H. GOMBRICH Art & Illusion III. vi. 193 Sprezzatura, the nonchalance which marks the perfect courtier and the perfect artist. 1960 Spectator 14 Oct. 569 The style governed by sprezzatura, dash and mandarin neoclassicism. 1973 Times Lit. Suppl. 14 Sept. 1063/2 Literary fashion and his own aristocratic sprezzatura demanded that he affect an unconcern.

Posted By: grapho Re: A performance sublime - 02/24/04 08:37 PM
There seem to be differing opinions on the definition of sprezzatura

When a word like "sprezzatura" is imported into the english language, is it de rigeur that the word conform rigidly to its original [foreign] meaning?

"Sprezzatura" is such a grand and colorful word to the english ear, even more grand and colorful than "bravura".

"Bravura" looks and sounds like it would be lucky to sit at the same table as "sprezzatura".

How disappointing to discover that, in Italian, a "bravura" performance may even surpass a "sprezzatura" performance.

Are we stuck with this unjust result?

Or, can we set "sprezzatura" free
To be as grand as it seems to be?



Posted By: wwh Re: A performance sublime - 02/24/04 10:09 PM
We import foreign words because they express ideas for
which there is no good English equivalent.
I would deplore changing them in any way, which would rob
them of their value.
My idea of "sprezzatura" in American artists was Bing Crosby. His ability to appear and sound totally relaxed was a big part of his charm.
But I also used to like Heldentenors, who projected their
masculinity proudly.

Posted By: Zed Re: A performance sublime - 02/24/04 11:48 PM
But I also used to like Heldentenors, who projected their
masculinity proudly

I once held a tenor - the rest I leave to your imagination!

Posted By: wwh Re: A performance sublime - 02/25/04 12:50 AM
Dear Zed: would you rather have held a Vatican Soprano?
They had lots of sprezzatura. Guaranteed incapable of
effort.

Posted By: Faldage Re: Vatican sopranos - 02/25/04 12:55 AM
They were often thought the best. Some were quite capable of the effort, but without the consequences.

Posted By: wwh Re: Vatican sopranos - 02/25/04 01:01 AM
Dear Faldage: Vatican sopranos were deprived of posterity at a very early age. I doubt very much that they ever had
a "tilt to the kilt".

Posted By: grapho Gelding the lilt - 02/25/04 04:29 AM
I doubt very much that they ever had a "tilt to the kilt".

Alas, performance at the expense of performance.

To geld the lilt is a crime against posterity. Or at least it should be.




Posted By: Faldage Re: Gelding the lilt - 02/25/04 12:21 PM
Google castrati lovers and you'll find some sites that claim that they were sought after by discriminating women.

Posted By: wwh Re: Gelding the lilt - 02/25/04 01:24 PM
Dear Faldage: I had searched, and those were idiots who were
castrated after reaching maturity.The Vatican types were
like the young man from Samoa,Who had one inch, and no more...

Posted By: grapho Re: Gelding the lilt - 02/25/04 03:48 PM
The Vatican types were like the young man from Samoa, who had one inch, and no more...

Let's not put too fine a point on it, wwh.

Let's just call it what it is: mutilation ... a low note in the history of chasing high notes.

Some chords are better lost than severed.




Posted By: wwh Re: back to sprezzatura - 02/27/04 06:38 PM
An antonym to "sprezzatura" from a Sherlock Holmes adventure:
""You remember," said he, "that some little time ago when I read you the passage in one of Poe's sketches in which a close reasoner follows the unspoken thoughts of his companion, you were inclined to treat the matter as a mere tour-de-force of the author. On my remarking that I was constantly in the habit of doing the same thing you expressed incredulity."

A "tour de force" is a master-stroke, a striking display of skill and power.

Posted By: Faldage Re: tour-de-force - 02/27/04 06:41 PM
That might qualify as making the difficult look difficult. I'm still (the Good Father's noble effort notwithstanding) looking for a word that means making the easy look difficult.

Posted By: maahey Re: tour-de-force - 02/27/04 06:51 PM
making the easy look difficult.

complicate?

Posted By: grapho Re: tour-de-force - 02/27/04 07:28 PM
I'm still ... looking for a word that means making the easy look difficult

How about "clumsy"?




Posted By: Faldage Re: clumsy - 02/27/04 07:31 PM
Naw. It can be done very adroitly. So far maahey has the lead with 'complicate'.

Posted By: wwh Re: tour-de-force - 02/27/04 07:32 PM
Faldage: best I can come up with is "grandstanding", in
baseball, a fielder indulging in histrionics.

Posted By: Faldage Re: grandstanding - 02/27/04 07:34 PM
Good'n Dr Bill. It's Dr Bill and maahey neck and neck.

Posted By: wwh Re: grandstanding - 02/27/04 07:38 PM
"Good'n Dr Bill. It's Dr Bill and maahey neck and neck."

Oh, to be 75 again.

Posted By: grapho adroitless - 02/27/04 07:46 PM
clumsy ... can be done very adroitly

You're thinking of "adroitless", Faldage.

The American Heritage Dictionary lists these synonyms for "adroit":

"Dexterous; skillful; expert; ready; clever; deft; ingenious; cunning; ready-witted"

"Clumsy" isn't among them.

Adroitless of those lexicographers!




Posted By: wwh Re: clumsy - 02/27/04 08:19 PM
Dear Faldage: after thinking about it, I have to admit
that "grandstanding" could be either way. A fielder could
pretend to have misjudged a ball, and then dramatically
correct and make a spectacular catch. Of course, his coach
would not be amused. In either case.

Posted By: Faldage Re: grandstanding - 02/27/04 08:28 PM
Presumably, if he hadn't pretended to misjudge, he would have made an easy catch. Of course, he might have been trying to fool a baserunner into thinking he wouldn't catch it, thus catching him off base for the double play.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: grandstanding - 02/27/04 08:30 PM
catch as catch can.

Posted By: AnnaStrophic easy appearing difficult - 02/27/04 08:32 PM
If I understand aright, a good example of this would be the reaction of a contractor, for example, when you ask him to do something: he pulls a face, thinks about it, tells you it's possible but won't be easy, takes his time doing it (even though he knows how to do it and the parts are cheap), then overcharges you and you cheerfully pay him because you're so grateful.

Posted By: Faldage Re: easy appearing difficult - 02/27/04 08:33 PM
Ooh, good example. Got a word for it?

Posted By: tsuwm Re: easy appearing difficult - 02/27/04 09:10 PM
something may be easy for you, difficult for others, so you sandbag to gull them into competing on your terms.

Posted By: musick Re: Sprezzatura - 02/27/04 11:43 PM
see also "Red Sox"

Hard to believe you got away with that so easily, Max!

Posted By: Zed Re: easy appearing difficult - 02/27/04 11:49 PM
How about a new eponym for making the easy look difficult.
To Scotty it. "Captain, it'll take at least 6 hours to recombobulate the widget drive!" "You've got 3 hours, Scotty." and he invariably finished in 2 hours and 59 minutes, just before detonation.


Posted By: wwh Re: easy appearing difficult - 02/28/04 12:10 AM
Dear Zed: I'll see your "Scotty" and raise you one "Spock".
Mr. Spock is the epitome of "sprezzatura" - he was never excited, impolite, or angry. A perfect courtier.

Posted By: Zed Re: easy appearing difficult - 02/28/04 12:12 AM
But somehow lacking the sence of enjoyment and fizz that sprezzatura has.

Posted By: wwh Re: easy appearing difficult - 02/28/04 12:23 AM
Dear Zed: you make "sprezzatura" sound like in-expertly
opening a bottle of champagne.

Posted By: grapho Re: easy appearing difficult - 02/28/04 12:07 PM
you make "sprezzatura" sound like in-expertly
opening a bottle of champagne


There is no sprezzatura way to open a bottle of champagne, wwh, unless you use it to christen a ship.

The more you struggle with it, the less chance your celebrations will fizzle out.

The art of opening a champagne bottle turns conventional wisdom upside down. The more adroitless the effort, the more felicitous the result.

You only get one "pop", so you'd better make it good!


Posted By: inselpeter Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 04:06 PM
This turned up while I was looking around for a word for Faldage:

Perhaps it was right to dissemble your love, But -- why did you kick me down stairs?

-- J. P. Kemble.


Posted By: grapho Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 04:14 PM
I was looking around for a word for Faldage

How about "Faldo"? All his male-bonding buds call him "Faldo".

I have this on the highest authority ... at least, the highest authority around here.

Or perhaps you were looking around for something less familiar ... in which case you might open it up to the board for suggestions.

I have forsaken such temptations myself ... as everyone can plainly see.


Posted By: wwh Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 04:31 PM
Just a paternal display of affection:
1"You are old, father William," the young man said,
2 "And your hair has become very white;
3And yet you incessantly stand on your head --
4 Do you think, at your age, it is right?"


5"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
6 "I feared it would injure the brain;
7But now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
8 Why, I do it again and again."


9"You are old," said the youth, "as I mentioned before,
10 And have grown most uncommonly fat;
11Yet you turned a back-somersault in at the door --
12 Pray, what is the reason of that?"


13"In my youth," said the sage, as he shook his grey locks,
14 "I kept all my limbs very supple
15By the use of this ointment -- one shilling the box --
16 Allow me to sell you a couple."


17"You are old," said the youth, "and your jaws are too weak
18 For anything tougher than suet;
19Yet you finished the goose, with the bones and the beak --
20 Pray, how did you manage to do it?"


21"In my youth," said his father, "I took to the law,
22 And argued each case with my wife;
23And the muscular strength, which it gave to my jaw,
24 Has lasted the rest of my life."


25"You are old," said the youth; one would hardly suppose
26 That your eye was as steady as ever;
27Yet you balanced an eel on the end of your nose --
28 What made you so awfully clever?"


29"I have answered three questions, and that is enough,"
30 Said his father; "don't give yourself airs!
31Do you think I can listen all day to such stuff?
32 Be off, or I'll kick you down stairs!"


Posted By: grapho Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 04:43 PM
"In my youth," said his father, "I took to the law,
And argued each case with my wife;
And the muscular strength, which it gave to my jaw,
Has lasted the rest of my life."


That was the days before spouses could argue online, wwh.

Nowadays, they just end up with Carpal Tunnel syndrome.



Posted By: wwh Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 05:02 PM
Dear grapho: Many spouses develop "ratchet jaw" instead.
Only on-line usage I could find for that was:
"Ratchet jaw...CB'er who talks too much "

Posted By: grapho Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 05:17 PM
"ratchet jaw"

Rachet Jaw commonly induces a condition known as Hatchet Jaw in those who are exposed to it.

Hatchet Jaw can spread from the jaw to the fist very rapidly.

Speaking of "Ratchet Jaws", the other nite I stopped at a bar for a beer.

The guy sitting next to be at the bar started talking to me. I wasn't really into talking with a stranger but he wouldn't let up.

After a while, I simply ignored him. He still wouldn't let up.

Finally, I got up and took a seat far away, too far away to watch the sporting event I was trying to watch on the TV over the bar, but, at least, far away from Ratchet Jaw.

After awhile, I looked up and saw that Ratchet Jaw was still talking and joking with me ... at my empty seat at the bar.

Later, a regular of the bar told me that nobody feels sorry for Ratchet Jaw. He is a hail-fellow-well-met and never gets tired of his own company.

True story.

Posted By: Jackie Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 09:05 PM
a word that means making the easy look difficult This could be one def. of finesse.

Posted By: wwh Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 09:26 PM
Another name for "tour-de-force" could be "over-kill". I remember reading stories about King Arthur's knights, when
one of them would hit adversary on the helmet with his sword,, and cleave him right down to his crotch.
The opposite of that was the Saracen who had a sword so
sharp that if you dropped a gossamer veil on it, it would
be cut into two pieces just by its weight.
I also remember reading almost two years ago, Osama bin Laden feeling our use of 2,000 lb. bombs on Taliban was
reprehensible. (Actually I suspect those words were put
in his mouth by some journalist.)

Posted By: grapho Re: tour-de-force - 02/28/04 09:27 PM
making the easy look difficult

An "easy look" at a scantily clad beauty can get a man into a lot of difficulties ... if he happens to be with his lady.

It's easier to get away with a furtive look than an easy look, but it isn't quite as rewarding.

In short, you don't have to make "the easy look difficult". It already is.

Ask any man who is not "your" man. He will tell you. There is nothing "easy" about an "easy look" in the right direction at the wrong time. In fact, there are few things more difficult.

Hmm. Gives me an idea for an invention. It is certain to be a big seller.

A tiny, clip-on, fold-out, rear vision mirror for men's eyeglasses.

It will be marketed for personal security, of course.

I wonder if it will be popular with women as well. You never know.

Posted By: grapho "shocking" violence - 02/29/04 02:23 PM
Another name for "tour-de-force" could be "over-kill". I remember reading stories about King Arthur's knights, when one of them would hit his adversary on the helmet with his sword, and cleave him right down to his crotch.

To which wwh added in a PM, posted now with his permission:

"Cleave to the crotch" is "Like the Irish one about the hero saying he would lie down and bleed a while, and then get up and fight some more. That had to be written by some poet who never saw any combat at all. A man that has shed any appreciable amount of blood, particularly after heavy exertion, goesinto shock, and in the days when transfusion was impossible,was not likely to survive."

This Irish hero is a dainty and a malingerer next to Mel Gibson's "Christ" in "The Passion of the Christ", wwh.

I am not a student of the healing arts, but it was obvious, even to me, that no human being could have survived the scourging which Gibson's character received the day before he dragged a 200 pound cross halfway across the city en route to Calvary Hill.

Regarding the scourging: After 2 men nearly exhausted themselves flagellating the Christ character until he couldn't rise up to take more after heroic previous efforts, the two men began to work him over, first back and then front, with whips equipped with metal claws which tore flesh from his body and splattered blood in their faces.

Finally, they dragged him away leaving the public square looking like the floor of an abattoir, propped him up against a wall, and ministered to him with taunts and insults and phlegm pitched at high velocity.

While the sun was still high in the sky on the same day of the scourging, the Christ character was escorted, walking under his own power, for his final appearance before Pontius Pilate and the rabid crowd which was baying for his crucifixion.

The next day his ordeal began in earnest.

That any man could have survived a scourging of the type depicted, forget the stroll down the Via Dolorosa the next day, is more miraculous than anything else recorded in the bible, at least it makes the Resurrection look like a cakewalk.

Curious no movie reviewer I have seen or read has commented on this aspect of "shock".

Note: Previewed in advance with wwh who has assured me it would not offend because it is a movie review, not religious commentary.


Posted By: wwh Re: "shocking" violence - 02/29/04 02:39 PM
Dear grapho: I hope noboby thinks I regard myself arbiter
elegantiarum . That was what started our flame war. Let's not have another.

http://www.sacklunch.net/Latin/A/arbiterelegantiarum.html

Posted By: grapho Re: "shocking" violence - 02/29/04 02:54 PM
I hope noboby thinks I regard myself arbiter
elegantiarum.


If there is any offence taken by anyone (other than Mel Gibson), and certainly none was intended, it is entirely my cross to bear, not yours, wwh.

It's only a movie.

I am not the first reviewer to have abhorred the unremitting violence and the absence of spirituality.

One reviewer said "This is the most violent movie I have ever seen".

I can't agree with him only because I didn't see it to the end.

I walked out halfway up the Via Dolorosa, my sensibilities soaked in blood.

BTW there was one other detail which seems to have been lost by reviewers amidst the unpitying orgy of brutality and blood.

The devil character glides through the crowd at intervals viewing the Christ figure's torment on the Via Dolorosa with a hint of unmistakable pleasure.

Does that seem likely?

The Christ figure was proceeding to his death on the cross to save humanity from the clutches of the devil himself.

This was surely the moment of the devil's greatest agony, not a moment for sadistic glee.

Mel Gibson's devil blew it in more ways than one. He lost the whole ball game with a twisted smirk on his face.

That twisted smirk might well have been intended for Mel himself, the devil getting the last laugh in this movie.

In my humble opinion, "The Passion of the Christ" has set Christianity back at least 500 years.

This movie speaks to a Christianity which cannot speak to us in our times.
Posted By: Father Steve Re: "shocking" violence - 02/29/04 08:54 PM
There was an interesting article on the medical aspects of the death of Jesus of Nazareth published in the 1986 Journal of the American Medical Association.

http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a024.html


Posted By: wwh Re: "shocking" violence - 02/29/04 09:36 PM
I am very much surprised that the JAMA article would speak
of the "Shroud of Turin" as being genuine. There is a lot of
evidence that it was fabricated in the 14th century.
http://skepdic.com/shroud.html

Posted By: Father Steve Re: "shocking" violence - 02/29/04 10:11 PM
The JAMA article was published in 1986. The "lot of evidence that (the Shroud of Turin) was fabricated" came to light, mostly, thereafter.


Posted By: grapho Re: "shocking" violence - 02/29/04 11:53 PM
Sprezzatura Father Steve.

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