Hi all - I heard a phrase used yesterday that reminded me of one of my favorite etymologies ever: "to be at loggerheads." This may well be folk etymology, as I've heard a couple of different versions of it, but: A loggerhead is a metal ball on a metal shaft, attached to a wooden handle (picture a spear, but with a ball rather than a point). On this, the versions I've heard agree. The more common versions go from this to say that:

Loggerheads were used on ships in the age of sail, and were heated red-hot in the ship's kitchen fire (or smithy perhaps) and used to heat tar/pitch for caulking the ship's seams, so that there wouldn't be lots of little fires needed around the ship (a bad thing on a wooden ship, especially a warship carrying lots of gunpowder). When sailors wanted to settle a quarrel, they would fight with these implements, and were thus "at loggerheads."

A google search turned up the following, from an unreliable source: To mix a drink called a "Flip", strong beer was mixed with sugar and rum and stirred with a red hot poker, called a loggerhead. Bar-room brawls were often settled using these pokers as weapons.

So - I've shared one of my favorites - any others.

Oh - I read another recently, and wondered about its validity. The idea is that in the old (Jewish, but unclear in the text) tradition in Palestine of sacrificing goats to God, one would be allowed to run off into the desert, carrying off all the people's sins. Any thoughts on this one?

p.s. - google turned up this:

Scapegoat
The result of a mistranslation of the Old Testament by William Tyndale in
1530. He mistakenly confused the Hebrew word "azazal," the name of a
Caanonite demon, with "ez-ozel," meaning, "the goat the departs."
Leviticus 16:8 discusses how goats should be sacrificed to God as a
sin-offering, and another should be given to Azazel and set free in the
wilderness, for the sins of the people.

Interesting. Anyway - favorite etymologies, y'all?

My favourite etymology, for one of my favourite sayings. (Please note the the original, and dare I say correct, spelling of favoUrite). "To freeze the balls off a brass monkey." As in, "It was cold enough ..." While the obvious lewd connection with the genitals of our closest relatives in the animal kingdom is what makes this saying great, it is (fortunately for the monkeys) not the original meaning. In the days of pirates, and cannons at sea, the cannon balls were stored on round brass rings to prevent them rolling all over the ship. For reasons unclear, these rings were called monkeys. In cold weather, the brass would shrink, until the ring was no longer capable of preventing the roll of the cannon ball, which would hence fall off. Thus the phrase, to freeze the balls of a brass monkey.

There's more to them than meets the eye:

The term brass monkey appears to have originated with the British army in India.

The monkey was brass which has a higher or lower (can't remember which) coefficient of expansion than iron. They were either triangular or rectangular. If the temperature fell below about -5degC for more than an hour or so, the monkey contracted, only slightly, but enough. Off came the cannon balls, and hence the expression. But they were probably never used on ships except for ceremonial occasions, although they were used in land-based forts. The reason why they weren't very practical onboard warships was that in rough weather the balls would fall off anyway, and the last thing you would want is iron balls rolling around the deck in a blow.

The monkeys were apparently made on a 'one-size-fits-all' basis for one particular cannon calibre. Since cannon balls came in varying diameters depending on the bore size of the cannon, the balance of the balls on the monkey would probably have been rather, um, delicate in a lot of cases. It would therefore sometimes have required only a very small amount of contraction in the monkey to produce the effect.

The term "monkey" is easily explained. Boys were employed to convey the gunpowder charges from the magazines to the cannon, both on ships and on land. They were called "powder monkeys" because the crawlspace between the magazine and the firing positions was kept as small as possible to prevent flash fires. More than one ship scored an own goal this way in the heat of battle. In spite of being small, the boys always had to run crouched because of the extremely low overhead, and were called "monkeys" because of this crouching posture. On board warships, the powder monkeys were also responsible for keeping the supply of cannonballs up to the cannon position. The term was transferred to the brass triangle or rectangle that was used to "deliver" the cannon balls in land forts. Sailors and soldiers are nothing if not economical with their nomenclature, obviously.

I understand that you can still see examples of brass monkeys in some preserved forts, particularly the citadel in Gibraltar.

As an aside, the Otago Motorcycle Club here in Zild runs a mid-winter rally into central Otago over the old coach road called "The Brass Monkey Rally". I rode on it a few times myself in the early years. Usually it is pretty cold, but one year some people suffered from heatstroke!

Hope this was interesting ... apologies otherwise.

Cap. Kiwi,

That was more than interesting: 'twas fascinating, informative, and entertaining. You seem to have a real talent for that. The width and depth of your
knowledge awe me--I'll bet I could ask you anything, and you'd know it. Thank you for posting that.

I'll bet I could ask you anything, and you'd know it.

Sorry Jackie, but that's not true, as has already been proven on this board and more than once at that! I'm learning new things all the time - and that's the reason I love it.

I sometimes feel like Bridget96! "when i grow up i wanna be smart like that".

"when i grow up i wanna be smart like that'

I always feel that way. Thanks for the great info, Capital Kiwi.

smart like that

Interesting stuff. But is it correct? Google makes us all instant scholars and the web makes us all instant publishers – but just because something is e-published does not validate it.

Dave Wilton accurately warns against too ready acceptance of “the veneer of sound scholarship (which can) be filled with inaccuracies that only come to light after extended checking. By far, the most common methodological error I find that amateur word sleuths make regards standards of evidence. Someone comes up with a hypothesis that sounds plausible, but fails to back it up with any evidence. Explanations for words or phrases (can be) … interesting, but without actual evidence to support them they cannot be considered correct.”
– see http://www.wordorigins.org/tools

You can see a typical ‘authoritative’ sounding statement of the old story here:
http://www.yacht-volant.org/SailorTalk/seaterms04.html


A succinct repudiation of the naval origins is typically thus:
“Nobody yet knows the origin of this phrase. The story that it relates to
cannonballs stacked on a brass frame on board ship has no historic or
scientific evidence to support it. In particular, the word used for a
cannonball stand was "garland," not "monkey"; garlands were not brass;
and it would be most inconvenient to stack balls in such a way that
ordinary pitching and tossing of the ship would free them.”
– see http://www.alt-usage-english.org/intro_c.html#colden0003

St Michael also casts doubts, though:
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-bra1.htm

For a further exploration try:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/brass_monkey_more.html

You will notice that various sources state quite categorically that the monkey is:
A gun…
A ship…
A cask…
A pump…
A boy…
A metal plate, Round…
Square…
Triangular…
Flat with circular depressions…
Lipped…
Named after its user…
Named after its maker…
Used aboard ships…
Used only on land…

About the only suggestion not made is the obvious one: that it was a Victorian saying referring to the ‘3 Brass Monkeys’ that were very popular at the time, and based on the obvious alliteration of the ‘b’ sound. No, that’s far too dull…

In summary, what I am saying is caveat emptor!

In reply to:

---

About the only suggestion not made is the obvious one: that it was a Victorian saying referring to the ‘3 Brass Monkeys’ that were very popular at the time

---

This suggestion is made, however, by the Word Detective at:

http://www.word-detective.com/back-r.html#monkeys

Bingley

>>Google makes us all instant scholars...About the only suggestion not made is the obvious one....

>This suggestion is made, however, by the Word Detective....

quod erat demonstrandum

quod erat demonstrandum

True, oh venerable one!

But I only had a lunch break to throw at the task
My main point being that it has never been easier in mankind's history for 'data' to be passed around, which does not become 'information' until it has been assessed, doncha think?

it has never been easier in mankind's history for 'data' to be passed around, which does not become 'information' until it has been assessed, doncha think?
One of the better things about this Board is that you get a question followed by data followed by information and even personal experience of history ... all of which leads -- at the least -- to a more informed opinion. Perhaps sometime in the future we may even learn The Truth !
Now, that should set the cat among the pigeons! [grin]
wow

Thanks Capital Kiwi, your Brass Monkey story was beautiful and I think it makes much sense. My husband can relate to the Motorcycle story---we both ride when the weather is sunny but only zero and 10 celsius. So thanks, your info was greatly appreciated and brightened my day.

enthusiast