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Posted By: joelsephus Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 12:08 PM
In my personal studies in philosophy I have come across a the words "illusion" and "delusion" quite a few times, and for my own interests I would like to figure out how they may be distinguished more precisely. For quite a while I had been looking for a word that captures the idea of believing in something simply because you want to believe it, regardless of whether or not it is true. This must be distinguished from simply believing in something that in actuality is or isn't true. Then I ran across the word "illusion" used in this way by Freud on a number of occasions, and he distinguishes the word in the same way from being what he calls "delusion". So I went to the sacred OED, and in spite of my diligent searching, I could not find support for Freud's use of the word in this manner. I am hoping that one of you linguiphiles out there may be able to help me out here. I would love to adopt this sense of the word for my own usage, but I do not want to confuse or frustrate every reader who may read my work in the future. So tell me, is Freud the only one who has used these words in this way? Even if he is, I'm afraid I'll still have to adopt this usage, because I can't find any other word that captures the idea so well.


Posted By: Chickie Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 12:20 PM
If I have the definition of this correctly interpreted, I "see" an "illusion" as something "visual". An oxymoron perhaps. Whereas, a delusion is something of a mental nature in terms of "belief". Perhaps Freud didn't consult his dictionary?
eg: A paranoid person is deluded.
A person in the desert seeing a mirage sees an illusion.
Very early in the morning here for me so perhaps I'm also deluded.

"Adversity is the whetstone of creativity"
Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 12:49 PM
It's true, Chickie, that "illusion" is most often associated with visual sensory input. But it can also be used in a figurative sense in the same way that "delusion" is used. For instance, you might say, "Law creates the illusion of order."
But what I'm really looking for is something that captures the idea of beliefs which are the result of desires. For example, in the film The Matrix, the character Neo says at one point that he doesn't believe in fate, and when asked why, he replies, "because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life". His belief here is dictated by his desires rather than what he perceives to be true. This is the sense in which I would like to use the word "illusion".
As for whether or not Freud consulted his dictionary in this case, I think that if there really is no other word that captures this idea, then "illusion" is a better word than any I can think of to adopt for this usage - especially with such a nice counterpart as "delusion" to play it off of.

Posted By: Solamente, Doug. Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 03:48 PM
Joel says:
For quite a while I had been looking for a word that captures the idea of believing in something simply because you want to believe it, regardless of whether or not it is true.

May I suggest the word "faith".

Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 03:59 PM
Hi there, and welcome both of you to the board.

I googled "delusion" and found that (a) most dictionaries see illusion and delusion as synonymous and (b) that delusion is also a specialist psychiatric term which is still considered to be synonymous with illusion.

It seems that no one agrees with Freud. Of course, my mental sidewalk is a bit dewy this early in the morning, I'm wearing my wife's petticoat and it could all just be a Freudian slip.

Posted By: Bobyoungbalt Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 04:00 PM
Welcome Joelsephus. Interesting name. Not, I hope, related to Flavius?

As to your question, I would think you would find an answer in the philosophy of Bishop Berkeley. [hope I spelled that right -- it's been near 40 years since I studied philosophy.]


Posted By: Chickie Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 04:05 PM
Hmmm...then I still see "illusion" as different from "delusion", as you describe it. He is having a "visual" image in his mind, he is not "deluded", as in having paranoid thoughts. Does this make sense? I believe it's correctly used, as you quoted it.

"Adversity is the whetstone of creativity"
Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 04:16 PM
Hi Bob, thanks for the note. It's been a little over a year since the last time I read any of Berkeley's writings, but I remember really enjoying what I read. What specifically did you have in mind that you think would fit this idea in his writings?

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Bishop Berkeley - 01/12/01 04:17 PM
There was a young man who said, "God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad."

"Westward the course of empire takes its way."

--this, of course, led to the naming of Berkeley, CA.

-joe (to exist is one thing, to be perceived is another) friday

Posted By: Jackie Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 04:19 PM
most dictionaries see illusion and delusion as synonymous

Okay, I can't stand this any longer. But first, welcome,
Joel.

In my book, if someone is experiencing an illusion, it may
eventually be proven that that belief was correct. If someone is delusional, that means that it is known that this belief is incorrect.

Perhaps perspective plays a part here. If a person is thinking or speaking of himself, he may not make the
distinction between the two, since he believes it in any case. Though there are instances where a person "knows" in some way that a certain belief is incorrect, but continues to adhere to it anyway.

Delusion is more commonly applied by persons other than the one who is having it.

Example: I come home from school with the illusion that I have done well on a test. If I find I did in fact get a good grade, then my illusion turned out to be correct.

If I come home saying I did well on the test, even though
I put wild guesses for answers, that is a delusion.

Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 04:23 PM
Doug says:
May I suggest the word "faith".

Although those who wish to discredit the idea of "faith" use the word in this way, I do not agree that this is what is meant by it. "Faith" simply refers to belief which is derived apart from (though not necessarily contradictory to) empirical evidence, and does not necessarily imply any personal desire to believe or not to believe.

Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 04:36 PM
Jackie, thank you for the welcome and also for the support of the usage that I am looking for. The way you described these words is exactly the way Freud uses them. As opposed to an "illusion", a "delusion" is when someone believes something that simply isn't true, and their desire to believe it is not the issue. But with an illusion (as in your example with the test) the issue is the fact that you believe it because you WANT to believe it.
Also, for the sake of others (like Chickie) I certainly am not trying to limit the usage of these terms to these usages exclusively and I understand the other ways in which they are commonly understood.

Posted By: of troy Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 04:54 PM
Well put Jackie--
In reply to:

Example: I come home from school with the illusion that I have done well on a test.
If I find I did in fact get a good grade, then my illusion turned out to be correct.
If I come home saying I did well on the test, even though I put wild guesses for answers, that is a delusion.


and a "magician" is now often called an illusionist-- we know that they are not really sawing the woman in half, pulling rabbits out of hats--but we are not deluded- even as we "see" something that we know is not logical or sometimes even possible.

If we thought the illusionist was really perfoming magic-- and was really cutting the woman in half, and then rejoining the parts-- that would be delusional.

Posted By: omnium Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 05:10 PM
Fowler seems to suggest that the word you are looking for is "delusion": "A delusion is a belief that, though false, has been surrendered to and accepted by the whole mind as the truth, and so may be expected to influence action." He defines "illusion" as "an impression that, though false, is entertained provisionally on the recommendation of the senses or the imagination, but awaits full acceptance and may be expected not to influence action."

Fowler also calls a magician's real actions a delusion, while what he seems to do is an illusion, and the belief that he does what he seems to do is also a delusion.

Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 05:20 PM
Omnium says:
Fowler seems to suggest that the word you are looking for is "delusion": "A delusion is a belief that, though false, has been surrendered to and accepted by the whole mind as the truth, and so may be expected to influence action." He defines "illusion" as "an impression that, though false, is entertained provisionally on the recommendation of the senses or the imagination, but awaits full acceptance and may be expected not to influence action."

Although it may seem like I'm splitting hairs here, the idea that you say Fowler is talking about here is not really what I'm looking for. Remember that I want a word that captures the idea that it doesn't matter whether what the person believes is actually true or false, simply that it is something they believe because they WANT to believe it. THIS is how Freud makes use of the word.

Posted By: omnium Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 05:35 PM
Concerning:

Remember that I want a word that captures the idea that it doesn't matter whether what the person believes is actually true or false, simply that it is something they believe because they WANT to believe it.

Then I don't think you can use the word "illusion" either, as that word definitely refers to a false impression.

Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 05:48 PM
Concerning:
"Then I don't think you can use the word "illusion" either, as that word definitely refers to a false impression."

You see, that is exactly what is at issue here. I understand that the general usage of the word "illusion" implies false belief. But that is not the way Freud used it, and I'm coming to the point where I don't think I necessarily need to use it that way either. I'm thinking that to follow his lead here would provide a whole new and very useful sense of the word. After all, that's how good words come to be - there's an idea that can't be expressed without all kinds of explanations and examples, and then someone comes along and pins that idea to a specific word and it eventually becomes accepted as legitimate. I think that it would be much better to do this with the word "illusion" rather than make up a random word of my own, since the path has already been cut by a well known author and since this word already carries at least a similar meaning. As I am sure many of you can already tell, I am not exactly a conservative linguaphile.

Posted By: omnium Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 06:17 PM
joelsephus wrote:

You see, that is exactly what is at issue here. I understand that the general usage of the word "illusion" implies false belief. But that is not the way Freud used it, and I'm coming to the point where I don't think I necessarily need to use it that way either. I'm thinking that to follow his lead here would provide a whole new and very useful sense of the word. After all, that's how good words come to be - there's an idea that can't be expressed without all kinds of explanations and examples, and then someone comes along and pins that idea to a specific word and it eventually becomes accepted as legitimate. I think that it would be much better to do this with the word "illusion" rather than make up a random word of my own, since the path has already been cut by a well known author and since this word already carries at least a similar meaning. As I am sure many of you can already tell, I am not exactly a conservative linguaphile.

All I'm suggesting is that "delusion" is closer to your meaning than is "illusion" if you're willing to overlook the requirement that the belief must be false. Fowler's definition of "delusion" that says it "has been surrendered to and accepted by the whole mind as the truth" is very close to your desire for a word that expresses "believing in something simply because you want to believe it." The word "illusion," on the other hand, implies something that is believed in because of some trick of the senses.

I don't think that Freud's use of the word "illusion" necessarily gives it any greater authority. Didn't he write originally in German, and wouldn't the use of the word "illusion" have been chosen by a translator, not by Freud?


Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 06:40 PM
Omnium wrote:
"Didn't he write originally in German, and wouldn't the use of the word "illusion" have been chosen by a translator, not by Freud?"

I'd have to go and check on whether Freud only wrote in German, but I'm fairly certain that he also spoke english, and there's also the fact that in his writings he distinguished "illusion" from "delusion".

Also, aside from this issue, I'm also wondering if perhaps someone knows the etymology of these two words and what roots separate one from the other etymologically. I am by no means a linguist, but I'm guessing there's probably some latin root word like "lucere" which means to illuminate, and these two somehow are born from there. But I'd much prefer to leave that sort of work to the real experts who haunt the shadows of this electronic nether world.


Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 06:45 PM
But I'd much prefer to leave that sort of work to the real experts who haunt the shadows of this electronic nether world.

That's no way to talk about tsuwm. Or Minnesota, either, come to think of it. Sick'em, boy!

Posted By: Bobyoungbalt Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 07:24 PM
the word "faith"
Consider this: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Hebrews 11:1
Very apposite to this discussion and 1900 years ahead of Freud.

Posted By: Chickie Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 07:28 PM
Jackie, very clearly put. Apples and oranges.

"Adversity is the whetstone of creativity"
The AHD traces the -lusion part back to the Latin ludere, to play. I would say that the word delusion in common usage, implies a certain fight against evidence to the contrary, which, as you have stated, is not really what you are looking for. Illusion on the other hand, to me does not strongly imply a falseness of the belief so much as a lack of supporting evidence without implying any ignored counterevidence.

Probably the idea that you define your terms is more important than finding an existing word that says exactly what you mean. If you want to coin a word I would suggest that it be based on the root -lusion, perhaps cupilusion from the Latin cupio, cupere to desire. Define it in the Introduction or Chapter 1 and go from there.

Faldage, thank you very much for your helpful note. I'll consider "cupilusion" if I do any major work on the subject any time soon.

By the way, can someone tell me how many messages I have to post to quit my "stranger" status? I feel like such an outsider! :(

Posted By: Jackie Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 09:41 PM
Welcome, omnium. You do realize, don't you, that due to your name, we will expect great things of you?
Also welcome to incunabula from t'other thread. (I have no wish to be accused again of inflating the number of my posts by issuing a welcome and nothing more.)

Joel., glad my def. agreed with yours. When you've made 25 posts, Sweetie, you'll become a cute little newbie. I do believe you get the honor of being the first newcomer to ask a question that resulted in such a flurry of responses.

Posted By: Faldage Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 09:57 PM
Jackie notes: When you've made 25 posts, Sweetie, you'll become a cute little newbie. I do believe you get the honor of being the first newcomer to ask a question that resulted in such a flurry of responses.

And may well become the first to break out of the realm of strangerdom in one thread.

You're welcome, joelsephus. When you thank me in the Acknowledgements section of your book, thank me as Faldage.

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/12/01 10:37 PM
But I'd much prefer to leave that sort of work to the real experts who haunt the shadows of this electronic nether world.

to which CK chafed That's no way to talk about tsuwm. Or Minnesota, either, come to think of it.

thanks, kwee-wee; we *are still mostly nether and only a bit electronic hereabouts.

and a comment on faith in the theological sense; i.e., "the spiritual apprehension of divine truths, or of realities beyond the reach of sensible experience or logical proof" -- or, what the spirit believes without regard to truth or falsity.

Posted By: TEd Remington Another way to skinner a cat - 01/13/01 01:36 AM
>and it could all just be a Freudian slip.

I. Kant take it!!!!

Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Another way to skinner a cat - 01/13/01 05:24 AM
Ted philosophised: I. Kant take it!!!!

CK responds, heatedly, after briefly considering whether Schrodinger's Cat is merely a logical outcome of Bishop Berkeley's school of thought: Burn on the Hobbes of Hell.

CONGRATULATIONS

TEd Remington, you are also the lucky winner of

First Prize in the

AWAD Most Excessive and Gratuitous Use of Exclamation Marks in One Post Award
.

The prize is one tax audit by the IRS to be carried out at a time and office of their choosing.

Yet you should be grateful, because second prize is TWO simultaneous tax audits by the IRS at the same time of their choosing in different offices.

Third prize is this interesting and funny URL http://www.phobe.com/s_cat/s_cat.html

TEd Remington, you're a winner!

Posted By: TEd Remington Re: Another way to skinner a cat - 01/13/01 02:23 PM
In reply to:

CONGRATULATIONS

TEd Remington, you are also the lucky winner of

First Prize in the

AWAD Most Excessive and Gratuitous Use of Exclamation Marks in One Post Award.


I KNEW IT!!! I had a Locke on first place!!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/13/01 06:38 PM
Thanks Jackie! I think I'm still quite a way from 25 yet Faldage, but who knows.

So does anyone else besides Faldage have info on the origins of these two words?

I was also hoping that someone might be able to tell me if there is an online etymology reference source that is available either for free or for a reasonable price.

Clawing my way up to newbiehood,
Joelsephus

Posted By: Jazzoctopus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/13/01 09:29 PM
I was also hoping that someone might be able to tell me if there is an online etymology reference source that is available either for free or for a reasonable price.

Why, this is an online etymology resource . . . and much much more!

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/13/01 09:52 PM
expanding a bit on what Faldage had to say, it may be interesting to dwell on the roots, delude and illude (now rare). from the Latin ludere, to play; we have deludere, to play false; and illudere, to make sport of, to trick. they are pretty close to being synonymous and both pretty negative -- which is probably why illude has died out; delude just *sounds more negative.

Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/13/01 10:02 PM
Jazzoctopus says:
"Why, this is an online etymology resource . . . and much much more!"

Jazz, you're right of course. This is a wonderful etymology resource and I use it all the time. But what I am hoping to find is more of a searchable online etymology dictionary. That way I won't have to pester the demigods of the word world (is that any better Kiwi? ;) in my quest for the origins of such words as "illusion" and "delusion".

Posted By: joelsephus Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/13/01 10:41 PM
Tsuwm, thanks for expanding. Do you think you could expand just a bit more and tell me about the prefixes ill- and de- ? And do you think that one day either illusion or delusion will die out like illude did, or have they now gained enough distinction from each other to hang in there?

Posted By: tsuwm Re: de- and il- - 01/13/01 11:57 PM
they have, of course, a good many senses; of interest to us are these

de- In a bad sense, so as to put down or subject to some indignity: as decipere to take in, deceive; deludere to make game of, delude; deridere to laugh to scorn, deride; detesteri to abominate, detest.

il- (used like in-, before l) in this case, in the sense of (to play) on, upon or against

Posted By: wsieber Re: Illusion vs. Delusion - 01/17/01 09:26 AM
..I won't have to pester the demigods of the word world .
The illusion you're after is an absolute authority on the distinctive meaning of these two words - and on the meaning of words in general. And people here don't want to delude you into believeing that such an instance exists - they are proud to be anything you like except unanimous.

Freud wrote in German. There we have the word "Illusion", with a meaning very close to the English one. But there is no "Delusion" in German...

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